Jessica Nigri: Babe of the week #29 (July 2012)

[iguana_tonante]

Now into the actual content.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Why would I tell that story?

Because that's what you do constantly? In fact...

RJDiogenes wrote:

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A more appropriate story that I've told before would be from when I was in QI at St Margaret's. I worked with a nurse named Mary who once wanted to go to her friend's bachelorette party where they were going to see male strippers, but her husband wouldn't "let" her. To cheer her up, I brought her in a Chippendale's calendar, which she loved. Our boss, a nurse named Maureen, came into the office while she was looking at it and Mary had a moment of panic. But Maureen, a bit older and the prim and proper type, also loved it and told Mary to hang it on the bulletin board.

You did it again, right here.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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I used that story as one of several examples that women are the equal of men and should not need to be protected.

Good. Then go starting a thread "Freak of the week" and have people rating you. Make sure people add some really nasty, crass comments about your age, appearence, body shape, and sexual attractiveness. Have people comment on how you are only good for a shag, or not even for that.

You will go home angry, hurt and shamefaced. You have no idea what it's like to be a victim of such behaviour, and you have the gall to tell women and men who took exception to it that they need to chill, and it's all harmless and normal behaviour. Well, maybe in our deeply mysoginist culture it's normal, but it's far from harmless.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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It's kind of disorienting when reality doesn't support politics, isn't it?

Politics have nothing to do with it. In fact, the one who is ignoring reality to keep up his ideological vision of the world here is you.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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By the way, don't you work as a model?

So, the "feminist" shaming a female posters because she had pictures of herself on the web. How "progressive", and "liberated" of you.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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But I suppose your generation thinks the very idea of a Sexual Revolution is all icky and yucky, right? Does that make my schtick bigger than your schwartz?

Yes, tell the sexy Italian guy how I think that sex is "icky and yucky".

But again, that's your usual tactic: try to shame opponents into submission, instead of talking about the actual content.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Ah, a beauty contest is now rape. And I suppose our BOTW is asking for it by wearing those provocative clothes, right?

That's full of shit, even for you. Those women are subject to crass, shallow, dehumanazing comments that treat them as pieces of meat. Comments that will make you furious if they were towards you. But they dress provocatively, so in your view, are they asking for it? That's the line of reasoning you are threading, so it's quite rubbish that you are accusing people who take exception to it of that.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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but bringing up the fact that women do it too is just to point out that sexuality is a harmless part of the Human experience.

Sexuality is. Sexual harrassment don't. In fact...

RJDiogenes wrote:

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I've tried to explain this to you in the past, and I probably won't be any more successful now, but the fact is that sexuality is not sexism.

The fact that you can't see the difference between sexuality and sexual harrassment is disconcerting, but I guess not surprising.

[DAYoung]

Awesome thread. I like the direction it's taken.

[RJDiogenes]

^^

Robert Maxwell wrote:

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Translation: you're a privileged white male who is incapable of relating to people not born into such privilege. I wouldn't brag about that if I were you. With sexist "progressives" like you, who needs conservatives?

Privileged? I wish. Well, okay, privileged to have some common sense....

the G-man wrote:

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Rape isn't about sex. It's about violence. And women aren't raped because of how attractive they are or are not.

The fact that you would even imply that rape is based on whether a man finds a woman attractive is no less sexist than anything you've accused others of.

Hell, it's probably worse, since it opens (wrongfully) the door for whether the attractive woman was 'asking for it.'

Exactly. This is just another symptom of the age of extremism we live in.

iguana_tonante wrote:

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You did it again, right here.

No, I told a different story, one that is appropriate to the topic being discussed.

Good. Then go starting a thread "Freak of the week" and have people rating you. Make sure people add some really nasty, crass comments about your age, appearence, body shape, and sexual attractiveness. Have people comment on how you are only good for a shag, or not even for that.

Your topic is designed to be vengeful, so it's not appropriate. If we still had the Hunk of the Week Thread (which I not only participated in, but occasionally hosted) and I somehow became the subject matter, I would expect to get a low score. However, my talents lie in other areas-- I post my stories, poetry, artwork and photography and accept all honest comments, no matter how critical.

You will go home angry, hurt and shamefaced. You have no idea what it's like to be a victim of such behaviour, and you have the gall to tell women and men who took exception to it that they need to chill, and it's all harmless and normal behaviour. Well, maybe in our deeply mysoginist culture it's normal, but it's far from harmless.

You're obviously very into your angry young man shtick, but there are plenty of other venues where that energy could be put to better use.

Politics have nothing to do with it. In fact, the one who is ignoring reality to keep up his ideological vision of the world here is you.

Uh... whuh? I'm the one who's anti-ideology and pro-rationalism, remember?

So, the "feminist" shaming a female posters because she had pictures of herself on the web. How "progressive", and "liberated" of you.

I'm not shaming anyone. I think it's great. I'm trying to understand why she would think this sort of thing is "sexist" when she makes a living at it.

Yes, tell the sexy Italian guy how I think that sex is "icky and yucky".

Hey, laughter, that's good. Maybe there's hope.

But again, that's your usual tactic: try to shame opponents into submission, instead of talking about the actual content.

I never shame anyone. And all I do is talk about content, using stuff like reason, common sense, history and examples from real life. All I get back is PC sloganeering. It's like talking to Creationists.

That's full of shit, even for you. Those women are subject to crass, shallow, dehumanazing comments that treat them as pieces of meat. Comments that will make you furious if they were towards you. But they dress provocatively, so in your view, are they asking for it? That's the line of reasoning you are threading, so it's quite rubbish that you are accusing people who take exception to it of that.

No. You're making that all up. It's bad for people to be rude in any context.

The fact that you can't see the difference between sexuality and sexual harrassment is disconcerting, but I guess not surprising.

Sexual harassment? Get real. That's almost as bad as claiming it's rape.

[iguana_tonante]

You talk a lot for someone who isn't actually saying anything.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Your topic is designed to be vengeful, so it's not appropriate. If we still had the Hunk of the Week Thread (which I not only participated in, but occasionally hosted) and I somehow became the subject matter, I would expect to get a low score.

Great to talk about it in theory. It makes you feel all enlightnened without the need to actually do anything. Very convenient. Put yourself in other people's shoes for a change, not just for a day but for years and years of harrassment, and see how you like it.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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However, my talents lie in other areas-- I post my stories, poetry, artwork and photography and accept all honest comments, no matter how critical.

"Hot or not" ≠ literary critisms.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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You're obviously very into your angry young man shtick, but there are plenty of other venues where that energy could be put to better use.

Yes, sexism and objectification of women makes me quite cross. It's one of the few things that actually do. What's the alternative? Shrug it off because it's not about me? I actually care about people, instead of keep saying you are so liberal and enlightnened, but not doing anything about it.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Uh... whuh? I'm the one who's anti-ideology and pro-rationalism, remember?

Not really. You say that aplenty, but there is very little in your posts to prove it.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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And all I do is talk about content, using stuff like reason, common sense, history and examples from real life. All I get back is PC sloganeering.

Again, not really. But you are so entrenched in your own personal fiction that you can't see reality anymore.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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It's like talking to Creationists.

Lulz.

RJDiogenes wrote:

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No. You're making that all up. It's bad for people to be rude in any context.

So what's up with you making excuses for this kind of behaviour in these threads?

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Sexual harassment? Get real. That's almost as bad as claiming it's rape.

Treating women like pices of meat is not harrassment? Then what is it?

[Bob Morton]

I voted Thumbs up. I imagine, with her experience, knowledge, and dedication to all things SF/F, she'd be good addition to some of the discussions around here.

I'm sure I'd get along better with Jessica Nigri than with JLo or Taylor Swift; more to talk about. Though, truthfully, I'm not sure if the later two are SF/F fans or not. They may be, and that'd be good.

[{ Emilia }]

RJDiogenes wrote:

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Privileged? I wish. Well, okay, privileged to have some common sense....

If you don't see how being a white straight male makes life a whole lot easier for you then you must be pretty naive. That's what RobMax meant.
You really think history ended when the civil rights movement "won", huh?

Your topic is designed to be vengeful, so it's not appropriate. If we still had the Hunk of the Week Thread (which I not only participated in, but occasionally hosted) and I somehow became the subject matter, I would expect to get a low score. However, my talents lie in other areas-- I post my stories, poetry, artwork and photography and accept all honest comments, no matter how critical.

Nonsense, sure you'd like honest comments. I can believe that.
But degrading comments? Criticism that just makes fun of you and your terrible lack of imagination and writing skills and how you lack the intelligence to write anything that's even remotely interesting? (I'm not saying this is true. I'm just trying to illustrate the comparison.)
You'd ask for some kind of civil behaviour and rightly so.

That civil behaviour is what's lacking in this thread. And let's be blunt here: objectification of women has a long history and it's quite amusing how a self-proclaimed enlightened progressive just turns a blind eye towards it when it happens in our day and age.

You're obviously very into your angry young man shtick, but there are plenty of other venues where that energy could be put to better use.

The iguana never seemed particularly angry to me but hey, I also love Philip Roth so apparently I don't mind "angry old men". Fine, the iguana isn't old but a healthy amount of anger is okay when it's used to expose bigoted, sexist, disgusting behaviour.

Although, for some reason I think the iguana is more amused than angered by your attempts at justifying yourself now.

Uh... whuh? I'm the one who's anti-ideology and pro-rationalism, remember?

You can repeat it again and again but it's not going to make it more credible.
It really amuses me how you're trying to paint yourself as progressive and liberal when in fact many of your views are shamelessly backwards. Accusing us of seeing sex as "icky" is just so ridiculous considering who we are. Do you really believe this? I mean, seriously?
The two Italians who have absolutely no issue with sex or nudity of any kind in any media? Or RobMax who is left-wing and progressive enough to be an honorary European?

We just seem to agree with the German constitution (of all things!) which states that "human dignity is inviolable". So it annoys us when we see blatantly sexist or misogynist behaviour objectifying and degrading women.

But obviously you won't question your own behaviour. In fact I don't even recall any outrageous sexist posts made by you, you just keep defending others who do make those posts. Does that make you proud? You don't write terribly sexist comments yourself but you defend the people who do because your whole agenda is to push back "silly PC feminism". I guess you miss the times when it was okay to treat women like that?

I'm not shaming anyone. I think it's great. I'm trying to understand why she would think this sort of thing is "sexist" when she makes a living at it.

See, that just shows how you don't understand it. I have no issues with women wearing revealing clothing, female beauty, aesthetic art, or the people expressing themselves through it.

I have issues with a sexist audience who's only interested in "I'd do her!". People who don't see these models/actresses as artists who create a piece of art with the director/photographer but just as objectified pieces of meat they "would do" or "wouldn't do because they got that boring generic supermodel look and an ugly forehead!!!1!".

Contrary to what you might think the vast majority of actresses and models is not doing their job just to make you horny. Unless they're the Playmate of the month which is a different story and so far the BOTW thread has focused on "normal" actresses and models.
I like both modelling and photography because I like the process of creating art and its results. Sadly I can't paint at all but I need something to distract me from writing my dissertation once in a while.

This whole discussion is a lot about the tone used in these threads. The people criticizing it don't have issues with talking about looks or giving compliments. When I go out wearing a nice dress I don't mind random compliments/comments even from strangers (Heck, I'm Italian.). What I would mind are tasteless or objectifying comments given in a degrading tone and that's what we don't like in this thread. Funny enough the Europeans I meet when going out seem to realize what's out-of-line and what's okay because I've never had any problems.

Anonymous guys on a web forum on the other hand can freely express their misogynist and sexist tendencies.

Nobody cares if a random nerd says "She's not my type." but making a degrading joke about somebody's looks or objectifying the woman solely as a sex object... that's silly.

I never shame anyone. And all I do is talk about content, using stuff like reason, common sense, history and examples from real life. All I get back is PC sloganeering. It's like talking to Creationists.

I love how it's always the closet sexist, racist or homophobe people complaining about political correctness.
As a sidenote "PC" isn't really a huge topic here in Europe. So we don't actually freak out easily.

[Rarewolf]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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Rather than woman known only for wearing revealing clothing.

As one of my (female) teachers said to the girls in my class many moons ago, if you've got it - flaunt it - you won't have it forever.

[Captain Craig]

Is it Friday yet?

[Gov Kodos]

It's a Long Way to Tipperary.

[Rageforthemachine]

Uh, is there a responsible adult anywhere in the room, I think the tone of this thread is becoming rather nasty, at the very least it should be moved to the existing BOTW discussion thread.

Poor Jessica Nigri I wonder if she is aware of the power she has to sow discord.

But this is what you get, we should have taken a stand and stopped cosplay when it annexed the Sudetenland in 36!

[RJDiogenes]

^^ She probably figures any publicity is good publicity.

iguana_tonante wrote:

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Great to talk about it in theory. It makes you feel all enlightnened without the need to actually do anything. Very convenient. Put yourself in other people's shoes for a change, not just for a day but for years and years of harrassment, and see how you like it.

As I said: For longer than you've been alive. Ah, but I forgot: those decades working in OB-GYN and women's advocacy is just a "shtick" so it doesn't count.

"Hot or not" ≠ literary critisms.

Uh... okay, if you say so.

Yes, sexism and objectification of women makes me quite cross. It's one of the few things that actually do. What's the alternative? Shrug it off because it's not about me? I actually care about people, instead of keep saying you are so liberal and enlightnened, but not doing anything about it.

Again: Sexuality is not sexism.

So what's up with you making excuses for this kind of behaviour in these threads?

What excuses for what behavior?

Treating women like pices of meat is not harrassment? Then what is it?

Not harassment. In any case, the "pieces of meat" thing is your slogan, not mine-- as far as I'm concerned, female beauty is as open to discussion as any other topic.

{ Emilia } wrote:

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You really think history ended when the civil rights movement "won", huh?

No, of course not. That's why I always speak up against the backsliding. We're obviously in the "one step back" of the cycle now.

Nonsense, sure you'd like honest comments. I can believe that.
But degrading comments? Criticism that just makes fun of you and your terrible lack of imagination and writing skills and how you lack the intelligence to write anything that's even remotely interesting? (I'm not saying this is true. I'm just trying to illustrate the comparison.)
You'd ask for some kind of civil behaviour and rightly so.

That would be rude, but I could handle it. I've already said many times that rudeness is bad in any context. My original comment was in response to Trekker's rudeness, you may recall.

That civil behaviour is what's lacking in this thread. And let's be blunt here: objectification of women has a long history and it's quite amusing how a self-proclaimed enlightened progressive just turns a blind eye towards it when it happens in our day and age.

Again, rudeness is always bad. What Rob and iguana are objecting to is the very concept of the thread.

You can repeat it again and again but it's not going to make it more credible.
It really amuses me how you're trying to paint yourself as progressive and liberal when in fact many of your views are shamelessly backwards. Accusing us of seeing sex as "icky" is just so ridiculous considering who we are. Do you really believe this? I mean, seriously?
The two Italians who have absolutely no issue with sex or nudity of any kind in any media? Or RobMax who is left-wing and progressive enough to be an honorary European?

That was my point. Thus the sarcasm. Note the winky. I was pointing out the hypocrisy.

But obviously you won't question your own behaviour. In fact I don't even recall any outrageous sexist posts made by you, you just keep defending others who do make those posts. Does that make you proud? You don't write terribly sexist comments yourself but you defend the people who do because your whole agenda is to push back "silly PC feminism". I guess you miss the times when it was okay to treat women like that?

I'm not sure who you think I'm defending, aside from the star of the thread, so you'll have to be more specific. The rest of this comment is rather arbitrary and contradictory to everything I've ever posted, so that also requires some explanation.

See, that just shows how you don't understand it. I have no issues with women wearing revealing clothing, female beauty, aesthetic art, or the people expressing themselves through it.

I didn't think so. That's why I asked.

I have issues with a sexist audience who's only interested in "I'd do her!". People who don't see these models/actresses as artists who create a piece of art with the director/photographer but just as objectified pieces of meat they "would do" or "wouldn't do because they got that boring generic supermodel look and an ugly forehead!!!1!".

Okay, that's good.

This whole discussion is a lot about the tone used in these threads. The people criticizing it don't have issues with talking about looks or giving compliments.

That's not what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people objecting to the very concept of talking about looks, because it's "treating people like pieces of meat" and "promoting rape" and "sexual harassment." Some pretty off the wall stuff here.

What I would mind are tasteless or objectifying comments given in a degrading tone and that's what we don't like in this thread.

Of course. Rudeness is bad in any context.

Nobody cares if a random nerd says "She's not my type." but making a degrading joke about somebody's looks or objectifying the woman solely as a sex object... that's silly.

Obviously.

I love how it's always the closet sexist, racist or homophobe people complaining about political correctness.

Good thing I'm the opposite of all those things, huh?

[Rush Limborg]

While I may take issue with the "Creationists" remark--still, I must admit I am absolutely enjoying how beautifully RJDiogenes is handling--and dismantling--the "arguments" of his adversaries in this debate. The other side seems given in to bromides, straw men, and catchphrases--all of which seem to indicate major defensiveness indicative of a chip on the shoulder the size of Montana. (Amazing how they are the ones lecturing on "civil behavior"....)

Carry on, mate.

[sidious618]

sidious618 wrote:

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I'm obviously not going to win in this argument, though. I'm going to be told that I'm overreacting or that I'm a feminazi or that I secretly do this to impress women or any of the hundreds of others of excuses that are thrown at men who are feminists.

Rush Limborg wrote:

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While I may take issue with the "Creationists" remark--still, I must admit I am absolutely enjoying how beautifully RJDiogenes is handling--and dismantling--the "arguments" of his adversaries in this debate. The other side seems given in to bromides, straw men, and catchphrases--all of which seem to indicate major defensiveness indicative of a chip on the shoulder the size of Montana. (Amazing how they are the ones lecturing on "civil behavior"....)

Carry on, mate.

Didn't take long.

[Davros]

Her body of work is irrelevant to her physical appearance.

[Rush Limborg]

sidious618 wrote:

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Didn't take long.

Yes, sir, you are a prophet.