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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old June 13 2012, 03:24 PM   #91
Andymator
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

The Overlord wrote: View Post
I think you can darker situations and still have a likable cast of main characters. There some things from past Star Trek shows that should be left in the past:

1. The no mourning rule: Death has to mean something in fiction, as it does in real life. Having people not mourn, makes them robot not people. Death has to be something with a real impact, not something that is dismissed right away.

2. No inter personal conflict: People are always going to have different ideas to deal with a problem, having everyone agree all the time makes it seem like Star Fleet promotes group think.

3. No more pat solutions to moral dilemmas. A moral dilemma has to be a tough choice, making the best choice in a situation. Dressing up a black and white situation as a moral dilemma is not going to work anymore.
I don't disagree with your statement that these 3 things are bad. I just don't see how they apply to past star trek shows?

1. There has never been a "no mourning rule". Death and mourning is often tackled in Star Trek, and often well. I honestly don't know where you got this from.

2. It may be trendy and cool on the internet to talk about how there was no inter personal conflict in Star Trek (especially TNG), but it's not true. There has ALWAYS been conflict between the characters in EVERY Star Trek series. Listening to too many Ron Moore Battlestar Galactica podcasts has somehow magically cemented this as a fact in the minds of people who actually watched the shows and should know better.

3. There are plenty of examples of Star Trek writers taking the easy way out or setting up an obviously one-sided dilemma, but there are also just as many examples of great moral dilemma's played out and payed off throughout the Star Trek canon. Some stories work, some don't. This isn't some chronic problem with Star Trek, it's just the reality of doing a billion episodes heheheh.
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Old July 12 2012, 07:09 AM   #92
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

I would have to agree. On the whole, the characters in TNG (for example) do seem to get on quite well however. There just dosn't seem to be any real "stupid' people in Star Trek as everyone appears to be on the same page. However, that's most likely caused be the writers trying to get to the crux of the story. Any one being "individual" would just slow down an otherwise pretty good plot. I've often wondered though how I would go in such an era. I really don't think I'd fit into a society where everyone seems to have their correct place in the overall scheme of things.

On the subject of moral dilemmas, there are plenty and I suppose these are designed to explore how such dilemmas could be overcome. Time and again I often feel that Kirk and to some extent Picard can often be a bit too "human" and that that attribute is far too often overlaid upon an otherwise alien civilisation. Episodes abound where "our rules" and "morals" are almost forced upon an alien culture that otherwise would have a completely differing set of social moral attitudes.

Dr.Crusher can be rather annoying with regards this, as can Captain Picard. In the series we are the ones who always seem to have the right answers, the right way of looking at....., well, anything. It would be nice for an alien culture to (just once) show us the apparent error of our ways rather than the other way around.

I guess it's just the frame of reference we have. That is we just inherently think we as a species will always have it all figured out correctly.
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Old July 12 2012, 08:11 AM   #93
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

No, no never!

No doom-and-gloom Star Trek, thank you.

Those who want "darker themes" can watch the over-depressing NuBSG with that crew of losers or be bored to death by Stargate Universe.
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Old July 12 2012, 08:52 PM   #94
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

A good ST series will have its share of "dark" episodes as a natural outgrowth of the characters, setting, etc - along with light-hearted and humorous material to balance it out. TOS and TNG had this, but I think DS9 did the best job of any ST series in balancing the dark and light stuff without getting too far into either.

I don't really think it works to compare ST to BSG as they are vastly different shows that really have nothing in common other than being set in space. BSG was dark just because of the basic premise of the show.

Don't worry about making a "dark" or "optimistic" or "dramatic" or "gritty" ST show - just worry about making a good show and let the other adjectives fall where they may.
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Old July 13 2012, 08:46 PM   #95
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

The next Star Trek series will be just as dark as its venue requires. On Netflix or TNT, not so dark. On Cartoon Network - an animated series that is dark by kid's standards, but not by grownups. On Showtime - dark enough to be perceived as consistent with their lineup (Dexter, Homeland), so pretty dark. On Starz (which just announced a space war series), very dark, violent and sexy.

Quality is a different issue. You can have a good, dark show or a good, light show. Obviously, nobody intentionally creates a crappy show, but the pressures to make something high quality will be strongest on Showtime, less strong on TNT, and as for Starz, I'm not at all sure they care.

Another big unknown factor is the showrunner who is the driving force behind the series (and there will have to be someone driving this project, to overcome CBS's inertia about it). Bryan Fuller would create a distinctly different series than Seth McFarlane.

But everyone can stop worrying about TNG - the TV ecosystem that supported that kind of space opera series is long since defunct. There will never be a Star Trek series like that again.
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Old July 14 2012, 02:13 AM   #96
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

But everyone can stop worrying about TNG - the TV ecosystem that supported that kind of space opera series is long since defunct. There will never be a Star Trek series like that again.
And if true, that right there is a reason to worry.
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Old July 14 2012, 03:00 AM   #97
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

Star Trek was meant to a positive look at the future, a darker themed series would IMO miss the point.
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Old July 14 2012, 07:46 AM   #98
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

You can have some darkness put you need the underlying message of hope.
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Old July 14 2012, 03:58 PM   #99
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

DWF wrote: View Post
Star Trek was meant to a positive look at the future, a darker themed series would IMO miss the point.
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Old July 14 2012, 08:17 PM   #100
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

RandyS wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

But everyone can stop worrying about TNG - the TV ecosystem that supported that kind of space opera series is long since defunct. There will never be a Star Trek series like that again.
And if true, that right there is a reason to worry.
Not for me - I don't want to see TNG back again. I want to see how the franchise can be shaped to the grownup cable market.

But even for TNG fans, there's no reason to worry because there's no hope left, so why worry? Well, not until the TV business really fragments from niches to micro-niches, in which serving very specific tastes becomes economically viable.

Then you could have a dozen different approaches to Star Trek simultaneously - TOS flavor, TNG flavor, DS9 flavor, JJ Abrams flavor, gritty-adult-drama flavor, cartoon-for-kids flavor, etc. We're still a ways away from that, but who knows what the future holds?

DWF wrote: View Post
Star Trek was meant to a positive look at the future, a darker themed series would IMO miss the point.
Optimistic and dark are not incompatible. Both TOS and DS9 were essentially optimistic in theme, yet dealt with dark issues. "Dark" is probably the wrong word here. "Honest" is a better way of saying it.
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Old July 14 2012, 09:26 PM   #101
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

But everyone can stop worrying about TNG - the TV ecosystem that supported that kind of space opera series is long since defunct. There will never be a Star Trek series like that again.
And if true, that right there is a reason to worry.
Not for me - I don't want to see TNG back again. I want to see how the franchise can be shaped to the grownup cable market.

But even for TNG fans, there's no reason to worry because there's no hope left, so why worry? Well, not until the TV business really fragments from niches to micro-niches, in which serving very specific tastes becomes economically viable.

Then you could have a dozen different approaches to Star Trek simultaneously - TOS flavor, TNG flavor, DS9 flavor, JJ Abrams flavor, gritty-adult-drama flavor, cartoon-for-kids flavor, etc. We're still a ways away from that, but who knows what the future holds?
I don't disagree with you. I just miss new TNG. For many years after 1994 I was getting that with the novels, but now, they focus exclusively on the post-Nemesis period where Data is dead, and the crew is split up. I don't want to badmouth the work those writers are doing because alot of that really IS good, but the TOS novels still do stories within the series timeframe. I wonder why TNG DS9, and VOYAGER don't?

But, to adress your belief that any new Star Trek would have to be on a cable network, why is that? In fact, why not just do direct to DVD? That's how I watch everything anymore anyway. I don't remember the last time I turned the cable box on other than to look at the news, and I use the internet for THAT too.

Plus, any new Star Trek production would, within a year of it's release, be put on DVD anyway, so why not eliminate the middleman?

And yeah, I understand the cost of advertising and all that as an argument against it, but it's not like DVD's don't come with ads, promos and whatnot.
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Old July 14 2012, 10:15 PM   #102
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

Not for me - I don't want to see TNG back again. I want to see how the franchise can be shaped to the grownup cable market.
How does dark equate to grownup?

Funny thing I've noticed in all these "grownup" shows. The characters all invariably act like children. I'm forty years old, I just don't see how some nudity, violence, four-letter words and characters acting like spoiled children equates to being grownup?
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Old July 15 2012, 03:35 AM   #103
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

Garrovick wrote: View Post

Don't worry about making a "dark" or "optimistic" or "dramatic" or "gritty" ST show - just worry about making a good show and let the other adjectives fall where they may.
This is without question the smartest comment I've seen in this thread so far, and that includes my own past arguments.
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Old July 15 2012, 08:21 PM   #104
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

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With the success of BSG among sci fi fans, may i suggest that the next star trek series present a more darker theme to its story telling. These are the following ideas for 1, 2 or 3 episodes story arcs.

1) A starfleet captain is bought to trial after discovering that he had ordered ,rather relutantly , the torture of captured Cardassian officers, in order to gather infomation about enemy bases and fleet movements during the Dominion war. The starfleet captain did this in order to minimalize starfleet casualties.

(a storyline that corresponds to contempory usage of waterboarding by the USA under george w bush)

2) A human scientist who performs lobotomy on aliens that he captures and kepts them as servants as he is prejudiced against non humans.

(yes, racisim still exist in the 24th century)

3) A starfleet ground combat unit that carrys out an unintended massacre of a ferengi colony near the ferengi/federation space. the ferengi are all killed down to the family memebers including women & children. Starfleet starts investigations & brings those involved to trial.

(similar to the my lai massacre incident during the vietnam war)

4) A entire race who are members of the federation starts to suffer a horrrbile genetic disease that proves incurable and causes their extinction. I nominate the denobulans as the soon to be extinct race as we see them in 22nd century (Enterprise Series) but not in the 23rd or 24th centuries which could mean that they are slowly dying off.

(In the babylon 5 series, there was this race called Markab who eventually die out due to a disease)

5) starfleet tolerating and even working with slave owning cultures along its border and federation citizens owning slaves and homes on those planets outside federation control.

(interesting moral issue, brings up the issue of states rights versus slavery which was a big issue that caused the american civil war)

6) Starfleet encounters a race where there are actually three genders but but the third gender is often killed as soon as they are born as they don't seem to have any use. That race like most races require only two genders to procreate but in their distant past, they needed 3 genders in order to procreate but they evolved from that to now only needing 2 genders. Because of that they kill the third gender because they have no use for that gender anymore.

(Gender rights issue)

7) A gay klingon, i want to see how how klingons deal with the issue of homosexuality. Who knows, may be they are more tolerant than we early 21st century humans are.

(LGBT issue)

8) zombies in space. We could have an episode where a starfleet medical ship picks up hundreds of sickly patients from a colony who slowly die and then reanimate as walking zombies. The starfleet ship becomes infested and the survivors fight back. We could have a "the walking dead" type of situation onboard the ship as the survivors await for rescue.

(zombies. I love zombies ! The TV series Andromeda had an episode about zombies infesting a ship but i always felt Star Trek could do it better.)
1) A nice idea that'll make fans choose sides.
2) A nice and realistic idea, alien racsism. The networks will proberbly like that because it'll show little kids and such that racsism is wrong.
3) Neat, I love a bit of blood and gore.
4) YES!!! It'll show the geeks like us that the continuity still matters to the network!
5) My response is simular to 1&2.
6) Interesting, It'll be like that episode of the next Generation when Riker falls in love with a member of a genderless species and heshewhatever falls in love with him and reveals she prefers gender, but the native species remove the "error" and "cure" heshewhatever from prefering gender. You know what episode I'm on about right?
7) Or maybe they are about as tolerant as a load of catholic extremests from the 13th century, that's the theory I'm going with, the klingons seem to be a people with pride and conservative values. Maybe the klingon can be in denial.
8) Oh yeah baby! I was thinking, maybe we can just have the borg become more zombie like.
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Old July 17 2012, 02:08 AM   #105
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Re: Exploring a darker theme in a future star trek series

BillJ wrote: View Post
Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post

Not for me - I don't want to see TNG back again. I want to see how the franchise can be shaped to the grownup cable market.
How does dark equate to grownup?

Funny thing I've noticed in all these "grownup" shows. The characters all invariably act like children. I'm forty years old, I just don't see how some nudity, violence, four-letter words and characters acting like spoiled children equates to being grownup?
Of course. Characters act like idiots because there's mature content in a show.

It's a stretch to predicate that since there is nudity, cursing, and violence, that the quality will automatically suffer. There is no direct relationship between the two.
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