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Old July 9 2012, 08:31 PM   #3796
Robert Maxwell
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Harvey wrote: View Post
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I liked BB and TDK, although I found both to be overlong (typical of Nolan's films) and I don't think the praise heaped on them is entirely deserved.
His first three films (Following, Memento, and Insomnia) all clock in at under two hours, and The Prestige is just ten minutes over that mark.

As he's been given more money to spend, though, his films seem to have gotten longer and longer. I wish he'd tackle a smaller project again; he really seemed to shine on that scale. The Prestige is really the only film to come close to that, and it's no surprise to me that it's the shortest of his last five films.

I don't mean to suggest that I dislike his more recent output, but I do miss early Nolan.
Maybe that's the problem. I hadn't seen his earlier work. I also liked Inception but it probably could've been a good 30 minutes shorter and still as effective.
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Old July 9 2012, 08:34 PM   #3797
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Gotham doesn't have to become a paradise after TDK. Anything less than what it was would be considered a huge improvement. One could say the overall situation simply became more tolerable. One could still have a level of street crime and corruption without the city going completely to hell. Indeed a lot of otherwise decent cities in the real world are pretty much like that.

Gotham always struck me as something like Chicago or New York of the 1920s. And that mightn't be far from what was originally intended when Bob Kane got started with all this. The 1920s and '30s were a notorious time for crime and corruption, and a time when gangsters were even romanticized. Or perhaps think of New York in the 1970s. Any movement away from that kind of situation and you'd think you were in a garden of paradise in comparison.
So Gotham finally repealed Prohibition?
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Old July 9 2012, 11:07 PM   #3798
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Inception was original. I can forgive a lot for that. Nolan screwed up the climax but so many movies are variations. Cleverness in variation has its satisfactions of course, but something more creative is never to be sneered at.

As to Nolan's Batman, the repeated insistence that his Batman is realistic keeps driving me to expect, well, realism, and the sharp disappointment tends to color whatever else the viewing experience has to offer. Aside from that, the cognitive dissonance when reading about realism and Batman's Nolan is very wearing. (Which also colors ones' anticipation of the viewing experience.) The only poster I've noticed before who seems to genuinely think Nolan isn't realistic in any ordinary sense is Lapis Exilis.

One thing I will note about the themes in the Batman movies is that they are very similar to Insomnia. For instance, the insistence that discrediting the man who put so many people away will result in villains on the street up to no ends of mischief. The thing is, none of the weaknesses in Insomnia (if you had to pin it down to just one thing, indulgence in hysteria as being "serious) are addressed in the Batman movies.

The Prestige addressed obsession, but none of the Batman movies really do anything different in Wayne's character. People seem to find plot points from various runs in Batman (all after my time reading the comics,) but personally I don't find anything from Nolan he didn't do just as well but more believably and entertainingly in Insomnia and The Prestige.

PS Yes, I own Insomnia and The Prestige but don't own any Nolan Batman. Indeed, I've only seen DKR the one time, in the theater. BB I've seen twice, the second time to see the Tom Wilkinson's speech as Maroni to Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne. I hallucinated that Maroni was being played by Denzel Washington and Bruce Wayne by Russell Crowe and that Nolan had spliced in outtakes from American Gangster just to mess with our heads.
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Old July 9 2012, 11:15 PM   #3799
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

stj wrote: View Post
Inception was original.
No, it wasn't.



On the discussion about Dent... how did Wayne prevent The Joker from telling the truth about Harvey Dent? Being in jail and going through the whole trial process would give him so much media attention, and there would be a lot of people who'd say "He's crazy, but I believe him."
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Old July 10 2012, 12:03 AM   #3800
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Inception was original.
No, it wasn't.
Awesome.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:28 AM   #3801
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Warped9 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Inception was original.
No, it wasn't.
Awesome.
The Uncle Scrooge story a really cool story, by the way. Friends of mine have offered to buy that issue of Uncle Scrooge off me, and I won't part with it.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:38 AM   #3802
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Inception also lifted a few things from Paprika, such as the dream elevator and a protagonist who doesn't dream normally anymore due to overuse of the dreamshare technology.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:42 AM   #3803
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Maybe that's the problem. I hadn't seen his earlier work. I also liked Inception but it probably could've been a good 30 minutes shorter and still as effective.
His first three films -- especially Memento -- are all worth seeing. I'd definitely recommend them.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:45 AM   #3804
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

I made the mistake of watching the linear version of Memento, where it becomes apparent how stupid all the characters really are. Ruined the film for me.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:48 AM   #3805
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

davejames wrote: View Post
You know, I'm sure the movie will rock.... but this idea of crime in Gotham being virtually wiped out for 8 years still seems awfully odd to me.

This isn't supposed to be Seattle or something, that just had a small little outbreak of crime for a while. It's freakin Gotham City-- the most wretched, corrupt, and crime-filled city in the entire DC universe. I can't really see how Harvey's death would possibly change that, or affect the behavior of all the petty, desperate, small-time criminals out there.

In fact, in the comics anytime Batman was out of the picture the crime rate would shoot through the roof.

I'm hoping Nolan will do a proper job explaining how this all happened, and it's not something we have to "just accept" from the outset.
I don't think it's supposed to be that there is no crime at all anymore, I'm thinking it's just that there is nothing serious enough for them to need Batman.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:50 AM   #3806
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

JD wrote: View Post
I don't think it's supposed to be that there is no crime at all anymore, I'm thinking it's just that there is nothing serious enough for them to need Batman.
This makes the most sense explaining Batman's absence.
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Old July 10 2012, 12:55 AM   #3807
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I made the mistake of watching the linear version of Memento, where it becomes apparent how stupid all the characters really are. Ruined the film for me.
How are the characters stupid?
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Old July 10 2012, 01:11 AM   #3808
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

JD wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
You know, I'm sure the movie will rock.... but this idea of crime in Gotham being virtually wiped out for 8 years still seems awfully odd to me.

This isn't supposed to be Seattle or something, that just had a small little outbreak of crime for a while. It's freakin Gotham City-- the most wretched, corrupt, and crime-filled city in the entire DC universe. I can't really see how Harvey's death would possibly change that, or affect the behavior of all the petty, desperate, small-time criminals out there.

In fact, in the comics anytime Batman was out of the picture the crime rate would shoot through the roof.

I'm hoping Nolan will do a proper job explaining how this all happened, and it's not something we have to "just accept" from the outset.
I don't think it's supposed to be that there is no crime at all anymore, I'm thinking it's just that there is nothing serious enough for them to need Batman.
I wonder if the Dent Act that has been mentioned is something of a police state type of crackdown. Sure, there is no crime, but it could be part of what incites Bane's revolution of sorts.
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Old July 10 2012, 01:11 AM   #3809
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Inception was original.
No, it wasn't.



On the discussion about Dent... how did Wayne prevent The Joker from telling the truth about Harvey Dent? Being in jail and going through the whole trial process would give him so much media attention, and there would be a lot of people who'd say "He's crazy, but I believe him."

Well, hell, now I have to lower my opinion of Nolan. He had the hard work done for him but he still forgot to have his two protagonists interact? Pathetic. Thanks for the link.

As for the Joker talking, that would imply the Batman movies are written as though the characters were real people (somewhere.) The Joker no more talks off screen than he spends two hours manhandling the hostages around the skyscraper or days sneaking explosives into the hospital. Essentially no one can even be pretended to exist when they're off screen. That's how Batman can move off screen on one side of a set of bad guys, then suddenly be on the other side without lumbering around in his Bat armour. He just wasn't anymore, then he was just somewhere else. No traveling involved. This kind of bad writing is unfortunately fairly common.
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Old July 10 2012, 01:35 AM   #3810
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises Anticipation Station

stj wrote: View Post
Inception was original. I can forgive a lot for that. Nolan screwed up the climax but so many movies are variations. Cleverness in variation has its satisfactions of course, but something more creative is never to be sneered at.

As to Nolan's Batman, the repeated insistence that his Batman is realistic keeps driving me to expect, well, realism, and the sharp disappointment tends to color whatever else the viewing experience has to offer. Aside from that, the cognitive dissonance when reading about realism and Batman's Nolan is very wearing. (Which also colors ones' anticipation of the viewing experience.) The only poster I've noticed before who seems to genuinely think Nolan isn't realistic in any ordinary sense is Lapis Exilis.

One thing I will note about the themes in the Batman movies is that they are very similar to Insomnia. For instance, the insistence that discrediting the man who put so many people away will result in villains on the street up to no ends of mischief. The thing is, none of the weaknesses in Insomnia (if you had to pin it down to just one thing, indulgence in hysteria as being "serious) are addressed in the Batman movies.

The Prestige addressed obsession, but none of the Batman movies really do anything different in Wayne's character. People seem to find plot points from various runs in Batman (all after my time reading the comics,) but personally I don't find anything from Nolan he didn't do just as well but more believably and entertainingly in Insomnia and The Prestige.

PS Yes, I own Insomnia and The Prestige but don't own any Nolan Batman. Indeed, I've only seen DKR the one time, in the theater. BB I've seen twice, the second time to see the Tom Wilkinson's speech as Maroni to Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne. I hallucinated that Maroni was being played by Denzel Washington and Bruce Wayne by Russell Crowe and that Nolan had spliced in outtakes from American Gangster just to mess with our heads.

I don't think Nolan's take on Batman is supposed to be true realism, just comic book realism. In other words, taking the ideas seriously, showing how it WOULD be if it were realistic. In that sense I think it succeeds brilliantly.
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