RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,943
Posts: 5,479,207
Members: 25,056
Currently online: 571
Newest member: JeremiahJT

TrekToday headlines

USS Enterprise Press-Out And Build Manual
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

New QMx USS Reliant Model
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Star Trek Thirty-Five Years On 35MM: A Retrospective
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 7 2012, 04:44 PM   #406
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

While I am for relativism in the case of dealing aliens I am the very opposite in the case of us. Human rights are universal. When somebody tries to rationalize monarchy or genital mutilation with tradition he is simply wrong.
Of course the problem of such a stance is that it is on a fundamental level totalitarian. But you need this zero-level of dogmatism, you can e.g. not say that democracy is contingent and we can vote on whether we want it or not. In Germany this was possible eighty years ago and it led to fascism.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 04:46 PM   #407
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
^But Junk Psuedoscience such as Warp Drive is OK?
Warp drive doesn't carry with it inherent moral implications from it's use.
You're avoiding the context. I was responding to the position that the Moral Dilemma is false, because it is being presented with Junk Psuedoscience. Warp Drive is every bit junk Psuedoscience, so, since they arrive at the moral dilemmas every week via Junk Psuedoscience Warp Drive, all moral dilemmas in all of Trek can be just as easily dismissed as being false dilemmas. You can't accept the results of one bit of Junk Psuedoscience as legitimate, while saying the effects of another are false.

I agree it was wrong for the writers to propagate/condone the idea as legitimate science, but, that was the science they chose to present in the story, so, in that universe, in that episode, it is legitimate science, just as much as Warp Drive is, since they couldn't arrive at the Moral dilemma without the Junk Psuedoscience of Warp Drive
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 04:47 PM   #408
The Overlord
Captain
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sindatur wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

Lovely nonsense, if you want an abortion or get euthanized you are screwed. No doctor today cares about this ancient oath anymore and a fictional alien doctor in an interspecies exchange program certainly doesn't either. Archer chose a Denobulan doctor precisely because he wanted somebody with a different perspective. Gee, that's why humankind is going out there in the first place, to learn from and about other people.
You do realize the modern Hippocratic Oath is different from ancient one, right? Most doctors still respect the modern oath.

Also just because Phlox's perspective is different doesn't make it good. Phlox seems to using eugenics to justify his perspective, that a weaker race is holding a stronger race back and if the weaker race dies the stronger race will thrive. That sounds familiar.

Frankly if Phlox can just ignore the Hippocratic oath at his whim, he is not fit to be a doctor in Star Fleet. Do you think Picard shouldn't have punished Worf for killing Duras, even according to Klingon culture what Worf did was okay?

I don't believe in complete cultural relativity, that is dangerous for a society. If someone believes they have the right to beat their wife, I don't think they should be legally allowed to do that.
Why do you keep bringing up Starfleet, and what Picard would do, and the Prime Directive, none of these things exist, and Phlox is not a member of Archer's Organization that gives him his orders. He is a Cultural Exchange participant, who Archer invited along for the ride requesting he serve as the ship's Doctor, no different than T'Pol's situation as an Observer
Because he is working on a Star Fleet ship and thus is subject to Star Fleet rules and regulations. If someone is visiting another country and they break the laws of that country, trying to argue that the illegal act in question is okay in their culture would not save them from legal punishment.
The Overlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 04:53 PM   #409
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

First, Phlox did not break any rule. He considered insubordination but didn't do it.
Second, The Breach reveals that your notion of Phlox being subject to human medical ethics is wrong.
Third, Archer could have chosen a human doctor but he chose an alien doctor for a good reason.
The emerging Federation is not a "homo sapiens only club". What we see in ENT is the slow coming together of species that differ and often cannot stand each other.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 04:55 PM   #410
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

You do realize the modern Hippocratic Oath is different from ancient one, right? Most doctors still respect the modern oath.

Also just because Phlox's perspective is different doesn't make it good. Phlox seems to using eugenics to justify his perspective, that a weaker race is holding a stronger race back and if the weaker race dies the stronger race will thrive. That sounds familiar.

Frankly if Phlox can just ignore the Hippocratic oath at his whim, he is not fit to be a doctor in Star Fleet. Do you think Picard shouldn't have punished Worf for killing Duras, even according to Klingon culture what Worf did was okay?

I don't believe in complete cultural relativity, that is dangerous for a society. If someone believes they have the right to beat their wife, I don't think they should be legally allowed to do that.
Why do you keep bringing up Starfleet, and what Picard would do, and the Prime Directive, none of these things exist, and Phlox is not a member of Archer's Organization that gives him his orders. He is a Cultural Exchange participant, who Archer invited along for the ride requesting he serve as the ship's Doctor, no different than T'Pol's situation as an Observer
Because he is working on a Star Fleet ship and thus is subject to Star Fleet rules and regulations. If someone is visiting another country and they break the laws of that country, trying to argue that the illegal act in question is okay in their culture would not save them from legal punishment.
How can he be working on a Starfleet ship, when there is no such thing as starfleet?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 05:00 PM   #411
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
While I am for relativism in the case of dealing aliens I am the very opposite in the case of us. Human rights are universal.
It really does sound great but in practice it will never carry very far due to the radical differences in life experience and radical differences in what is needed for survival.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 05:08 PM   #412
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sindatur wrote: View Post
How can he be working on a Starfleet ship, when there is no such thing as starfleet?
It is not the UFP Starfleet but Earth Starfleet. Not really much of a fleet yet though.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 05:31 PM   #413
The Overlord
Captain
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

Sindatur wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Why do you keep bringing up Starfleet, and what Picard would do, and the Prime Directive, none of these things exist, and Phlox is not a member of Archer's Organization that gives him his orders. He is a Cultural Exchange participant, who Archer invited along for the ride requesting he serve as the ship's Doctor, no different than T'Pol's situation as an Observer
Because he is working on a Star Fleet ship and thus is subject to Star Fleet rules and regulations. If someone is visiting another country and they break the laws of that country, trying to argue that the illegal act in question is okay in their culture would not save them from legal punishment.
How can he be working on a Starfleet ship, when there is no such thing as starfleet?
So are we to assume that Archer's ship there are no rules and regulations and anyone can do what they feel like?
The Overlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 05:41 PM   #414
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
While I am for relativism in the case of dealing aliens I am the very opposite in the case of us. Human rights are universal. When somebody tries to rationalize monarchy or genital mutilation with tradition he is simply wrong.
Of course the problem of such a stance is that it is on a fundamental level totalitarian. But you need this zero-level of dogmatism, you can e.g. not say that democracy is contingent and we can vote on whether we want it or not. In Germany this was possible eighty years ago and it led to fascism.

so you're saying you're a blatant speciesist? Ethics and rights apply to Humans, but not to sentient, self-aware aliens with their own societies?


What would be the distinction other than place of origin? If there were an undiscovered tribe living somewhere on Earth, would you contend that ethics don't apply to them?
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 05:56 PM   #415
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post
If there were an undiscovered tribe living somewhere on Earth, would you contend that ethics don't apply to them?
Which part of universal human rights did you not understand, Mr. Strawman?
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 08:31 PM   #416
TiberiusMaximus
Fleet Captain
 
TiberiusMaximus's Avatar
 
Location: A ship, a living ship, full of strange alien lifeforms.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

The Cold War could have easily ended in the extinction of humankind. So make up your mind, is preventing extinction only OK in the case of natural catastrophes and not in the case of cultural ones or what and why the distinction between cultural and natural and what about the cases where you cannot make a distinction between them?
What the frell does that have to do with my comment? I said:

Now, there would be situations where the Feds would be justified in turning down a cry for help, a line where they would say "Sorry, we can't get involved with this." One example would be asking for help in a war that had nothing to do with the Feds.
So, basically, I said sometimes the Feds would be morally and ethically obligated to say no to a request for help. Other times they wouldn't. Your "reply" makes no sense at all. You seem to think I'm equating "cries for help" with extinction-level events. I was referring to two different kinds of scenarios: actual requests for help that do not involve extinction-level events OR extinction-level events with or without requests for help.

I think I'm done with this thread. I'm exhausted of going in circles. To sum up: The PD is a good idea but isn't always right, and a lot of Trek fans fail to properly understand just why it's a good idea. Letting billions of people die is never a good thing. Saving someone once doesn't render you responsible for their eternal well-being. Hmm...that seems to cover it.

So long, everyone. Have fun.
__________________
"Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch." -Timo Saloniemi
TiberiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 08:45 PM   #417
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

It has everything to do with what you wrote as you claimed that the Feds should prevent extinction and not interfere into wars. I just asked a natural question, what if they overlap, what if a war could lead to self-annihilation.
Bill has provided a clear answer to this question. He distinguishes between natural and cultural catastrophes and advocates interferences in the former and non-interference in the latter case. You on the other hand refuse to think about the issue. So much about not making sense.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 09:14 PM   #418
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
If there were an undiscovered tribe living somewhere on Earth, would you contend that ethics don't apply to them?
Which part of universal human rights did you not understand, Mr. Strawman?

so it is indeed a location thing for you? There's something special about originating on the third planet in the Solar system as opposed to being a sentient, self-aware species in some other system somewhere when it comes to ethics?

Now look at that concept objectively, and try to construct a logical basis for it to make sense.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7 2012, 09:27 PM   #419
TiberiusMaximus
Fleet Captain
 
TiberiusMaximus's Avatar
 
Location: A ship, a living ship, full of strange alien lifeforms.
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Bill has provided a clear answer to this question. He distinguishes between natural and cultural catastrophes and advocates interferences in the former and non-interference in the latter case. You on the other hand refuse to think about the issue. So much about not making sense.
Stop being passive-aggressive and snide.

One more thing before I actually stop replying in this thread. I am NOT refusing to think about the issue. I'm advocating a more case-by-case approach to deciding who does and doesn't get help. Drawing arbitrary lines in the sand doesn't really help anyone. That's not the same as refusing to think about the issue.

Horatio, people might take you more seriously if you could write at least one post without being so smug and condescending.
__________________
"Quite possibly, the five Jem'Hadar could turn Data into a collection of four spasming limbs, one helpless torso, and one head that shouts insults at them like the Black Knight from the Monty Python sketch." -Timo Saloniemi
TiberiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 8 2012, 01:01 AM   #420
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: True or False: Dear Dr. is most morally bankrupt trek episode evar

sonak wrote: View Post
so it is indeed a location thing for you? There's something special about originating on the third planet in the Solar system as opposed to being a sentient, self-aware species in some other system somewhere when it comes to ethics?

Now look at that concept objectively, and try to construct a logical basis for it to make sense.
A bunch of stupid primates who were about to kill a silicon-based lifeform, to enslave an android and to deny hologram their basic rights can hardly know the holy grail of universal ethics that applies to all lifeforms. Starfleet officers are humble folks and not megalomaniacs that wage war against death-loving aristocrats like the Klingons in order to put them into reeducation camps afterwards.

If every species thinks it knows what it best for ALL other species the consequence is total war.


TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
Stop being passive-aggressive and snide.

Horatio, people might take you more seriously if you could write at least one post without being so smug and condescending.
I responded to your "you do not make sense" in kind and now the pot calls the kettle back.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.