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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Raise the Dawn.
Outstanding 83 70.94%
Above Average 25 21.37%
Average 3 2.56%
Below Average 3 2.56%
Poor 3 2.56%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 2 2012, 08:34 PM   #151
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I wonder what those readers who assume the Typhon Pact storyline is inevitably leading to war will make of this. This was the Cuban Missile Crisis for the UFP and the Pact, bringing them to the very brink of war, yet both sides avoided stepping over that brink and worked together to resolve things peacefully. Although I'm sure those readers will stubbornly insist that Kamemor is an aberration and is sure to be assassinated soon, etc. etc. Never mind that she's successfully purged the Romulan government of those working against her peacemaking agenda and has transcended the Tzenkethi's intended role for her as a weak, easily manipulated leader.
I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe. The only thing that prevented war was Kamemor coming to Earth. If she were not such a skilled diplomat and taken that risk, I don't think Bacco could have held back war sentiment or even wanted to especially after the Romulans, Tzenkethi, and True Way returned with Dominion tech.

Even with that being the case, I'm not sure realistically if the efforts of Kamemor and Bacco could have held back war sentiment since the Typhon Pact were responsible for "destroying" the wormhole. Nothing gets the war juices flowing like religious sentiment and I'm sure the Bajorans would like retribution against the parties involved in eliminating the gateway to the celestrial temple. Hopefully this religious ferver appears in upcoming novels.

I would expect someone to attempt to assassinate Kamemor, especially among the Tzenkethi since she is upsetting the designs of very powerful individuals. However, I hope this doesn't happen because she is a very interesting Romulan and a major stablizing force for the quadrant.
Yeah Bajoran Reaction should be interesting but they probably kiss and make up like that did with the Cardassians and get absolutely nothing again.

Even if they fail to kill her. Romulus is about to get wiped off the board anyway which should change the game in a major way anyway.
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Old July 2 2012, 09:06 PM   #152
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Ronald Held wrote: View Post
This is question for writers and editors: can other class ships beside the vesta be fitted with slipstream drive without a major overhaul and structural changes?
My understanding was "yes", but not all of them and certainly not all at once. Availability of ships and yard time as well as benamite in play here, so multiple "bottlenecks".
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Old July 2 2012, 09:16 PM   #153
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe.
And I think this book did a good job of showing why that was a misconception: because there were so many people on both sides actively trying to prevent war. (Not to mention because this is fiction. Fiction is routinely about making the worst possible outcome seem inevitable and then having the heroes avert it against impossible odds. So just because war looks inevitable in a work of fiction, that doesn't mean it can be expected to happen. On the contrary, since fiction often relies on surprise and reversals, war is more likely to break out in a fictional universe when it's unexpected.)


Even with that being the case, I'm not sure realistically if the efforts of Kamemor and Bacco could have held back war sentiment since the Typhon Pact were responsible for "destroying" the wormhole.
No -- rogue elements within the Typhon Pact were responsible. And the leader of the strongest nation within the Typhon Pact was instrumental in dismantling their efforts and bringing them to justice.


Nothing gets the war juices flowing like religious sentiment and I'm sure the Bajorans would like retribution against the parties involved in eliminating the gateway to the celestrial temple.
Those parties have already been defeated or at least badly weakened, thanks to Praetor Kamemor. Any Bajorans who'd want to go to war against her now would have to be fanatical idiots, as great a threat to the peace as Sela and Tomalak.


I would expect someone to attempt to assassinate Kamemor, especially among the Tzenkethi since she is upsetting the designs of very powerful individuals. However, I hope this doesn't happen because she is a very interesting Romulan and a major stablizing force for the quadrant.
And that's exactly why the Tzenkethi might not attempt any such thing. As Rough Beasts of Empire made clear, the whole reason they maneuvered Kamemor into the praetorship in the first place was because they wanted a strong and stable Typhon Pact, not one weakened and damaged by factional strife. The efforts of Sela and her faction, as Kamemor pointed out, just made the Pact less safe and stable, so Kamemor's actions served the strength and safety of the Pact, which is what the Tzenkethi want. True, the Tzenkethi were part of Sela's scheme, but hopefully their leaders will recognize what a severe miscalculation that was and how badly it undermined the goals they were hoping to serve.


Ronald Held wrote: View Post
This is question for writers and editors: can other class ships beside the vesta be fitted with slipstream drive without a major overhaul and structural changes?
Yes, if they're small and/or narrow enough. We know, of course, that Intrepid-class starships can use slipstream, since Voyager was able to do so. But something big and wide like a Galaxy or Akira, or a Luna, evidently, would be out of luck.
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Old July 2 2012, 09:47 PM   #154
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ronald Held wrote: View Post
This is question for writers and editors: can other class ships beside the vesta be fitted with slipstream drive without a major overhaul and structural changes?
Yes, if they're small and/or narrow enough. We know, of course, that Intrepid-class starships can use slipstream, since Voyager was able to do so. But something big and wide like a Galaxy or Akira, or a Luna, evidently, would be out of luck.
Although being a work of fiction, that may be completely untrue or just change at some point.
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Old July 2 2012, 10:27 PM   #155
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^As long as it's part of the same novel continuity overseen by the same people, it wouldn't "just change." If anything, the novel editors and authors seem to have gone out of their way to embrace the notion of the difficulty of retrofitting ships with slipstream drive. The idea that it required a specific hull configuration was just a handwave I came up with to explain why Titan didn't get slipstream, but later novels have really run with it and made it a major plot point. So any change to that status quo wouldn't just happen, but would need to be justified in-story, like the way the Pact scientists deduced that Dominion tech could let them achieve it.
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Old July 2 2012, 10:33 PM   #156
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
^As long as it's part of the same novel continuity overseen by the same people, it wouldn't "just change." If anything, the novel editors and authors seem to have gone out of their way to embrace the notion of the difficulty of retrofitting ships with slipstream drive. The idea that it required a specific hull configuration was just a handwave I came up with to explain why Titan didn't get slipstream, but later novels have really run with it and made it a major plot point. So any change to that status quo wouldn't just happen, but would need to be justified in-story, like the way the Pact scientists deduced that Dominion tech could let them achieve it.
And this kind of attempt to make tech feel like tech instead of "magic" is greatly appreciated by many Trek fans. Myself to be certain. It can mean the difference between looking at a fairly improbable piece of tech and going, "Well okay it at least makes some sense with what's gone before." or looking at such a thing and wanting to throw things at the screen. *cough*microtransporter*cough*
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Old July 2 2012, 10:47 PM   #157
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I just finished Dawn last weekend. Here's some random thoughts. I won't be able to cover everything (I mean, that would require more text than I can put in this message), but I selected a few topics I think are most worth discussing. (Do I need to warn for spoilers on page 11?)

First, I must admit something. I was quite critical of Rough Beasts of Empire and where it took Sisko. After reading Night and Dawn though, I will happily eat those words. In the end, I think all three books together make a fine trilogy as far as Sisko is concerned - they take him full circle in a way I hadn't expected but ultimately appreciated very much. We left Sisko as an "Emissary on hiatus" changing diapers at the end of the last Relaunch book, and I do think that his position needed to be addressed. If the Ascendant arc couldn't do that, then ultimately these three books did so quite nicely. The Prophets' warning was always hanging over his marriage like a sword of Damocles, which has now been dealt with. I much appreciate that it wasn't just a matter of Sisko finding his way back, but that Kasidy's own experiences in these books allowed her to meet him halfway as it were. She's always been depicted as being very uncomfortable with Sisko's role as Emissary, but her own experiences with the Prophets I think allowed her to develop a better understanding of what had motivated Ben. In the end, it felt not like Sisko coming back to Kasidy, both both of them moving towards eachother again. I very much appreciated that - as I've said before, hope for better times is one of the things Star Trek has always been about for me, and that was definately present here.

Now, my favorite book by David George is most certainly Serpents Among the Ruins. I really like the way he writes the Romulans, and wow, that's what we got here. I'll start by saying I really enjoyed T'Jul. Both she and Kamemor were depicted as - and I'm struggling to find the right word here - honest Romulans. In that I'm saying that they're not written as adversaries to "our heroes". Even though T'Jul ultimately found herself first deceiving and later fighting Starfleet, she didn't do so because she hated the Federation, but just because she found herself on the wrong side of an escalating conflict. Likewise, I found Kamemor so likeable not because she was sympathetic to the Federation, but rather because she was motivated by her service to the Star Empire. She reminded me a lot of what I like in Nan Bacco - here we have a woman who's not affraid of having personal risks or making impopular decisions for the cause she believes in, consequences be damned. The final confrontation between the two of them was golden, I almost applauded! All in all, this is the way I way the Typhon Pact situation to be handeld: not with open war, but with an honest exploration of the new political status quo - between the various powers, but also within each of them. I mentioned in my review of RBoE that I'd like to see the UFP bury the hatchet with the Romulans, as I think it's past time where they learned to understand each other and move forward. We now seem to have a chance at that, and I'm very happy with it. So whoever gets to work the "Hobus incident" into our current storyline once we reach it - I hope they find a way to salvage what was started here.

The second thing I want to mention is the loss of DS9. I've always liked its design, but that said - if the station had to go, then I think it went in the best way possible: serving the story. We've lost so many Enterprises over the years that ultimately, there would come a time for the station to go, and in the end - it's just a bit of metal that can and will be replaced. Likewise, I'm not that worried about the closing of the wormhole and Kira going with it. It's happened before (after "Tears of the Prophets"), and if Sisko can come back via Prophet-back-door, then so can Kira. We've got plenty of great characters left that will carry the story forward in the mean time (kudos for bringing back Nog and O'Brien!). One slight problem I did have, was how to marry the cover art to the description of the new DS9 given in the last chapter. I also have to try and find the description for the Tzenkethi ship again, because I had trouble picturing that too. Perhaps someone can enlighten me...?

I'll close with a few notes on Prynn and Vaughn. I think we've likely seen the last of Vaughn now, and though I liked his character, I'm OK with his departure. The concept of ending the life of another in this manner, and the dilemma it put Prynn in, is a touchy subject that I applaud both writer and editor for covering, because it's one of those things that a lot of people see as controversial in our time. It was handled with great care and respect for the situation of the next-of-kin, which I appreciated a lot.

So, concluding it all is another vote of "Outstanding" from me. I wasn't that thrilled with Destiny and some of the follow-up TP novels, but if this is the new direction we're going in for the DS9, all I can say is: when is the next one due?

P.S. For a book this good, I'll even type all of this twice. Take about bad timing for suddenly being logged out of the board...
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Old July 2 2012, 10:59 PM   #158
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe.
And I think this book did a good job of showing why that was a misconception: because there were so many people on both sides actively trying to prevent war. (Not to mention because this is fiction. Fiction is routinely about making the worst possible outcome seem inevitable and then having the heroes avert it against impossible odds. So just because war looks inevitable in a work of fiction, that doesn't mean it can be expected to happen. On the contrary, since fiction often relies on surprise and reversals, war is more likely to break out in a fictional universe when it's unexpected.)
Obviously the creative minds molding the Star Trek universe can move fictional events however they wish, though they typically try to do so in a logical progression and in such a way that causes us to examine events in our real world.

It is because of real world events that I worry about the future of the fictional universe because with the Khitomer Accords and Typhon Pact we have a situation that resembles the early 1900s where all the major world powers are tied into some treaty obligation where due to one bad move, the entire quadrant falls into war. This situation hasn't existed in Star Trek before because it never had so many alliances between so many powerful nations, some of which are expansionist and militaristic.

Pre 1914, no one expected the massive war that developed nor could they have predicted the scale on which that war was fought especially as a result of the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand.

I know you, Christopher, don't want to see Star Trek to become an ongoing war story/BSG, but that doesn't mean other stakeholders in Star Trek might want to take advantage of the powder keg situation and cause Galactic War 1 to break out.
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Old July 3 2012, 12:11 AM   #159
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe.
And I think this book did a good job of showing why that was a misconception: because there were so many people on both sides actively trying to prevent war. (Not to mention because this is fiction. Fiction is routinely about making the worst possible outcome seem inevitable and then having the heroes avert it against impossible odds. So just because war looks inevitable in a work of fiction, that doesn't mean it can be expected to happen. On the contrary, since fiction often relies on surprise and reversals, war is more likely to break out in a fictional universe when it's unexpected.)
Obviously the creative minds molding the Star Trek universe can move fictional events however they wish, though they typically try to do so in a logical progression and in such a way that causes us to examine events in our real world.

It is because of real world events that I worry about the future of the fictional universe because with the Khitomer Accords and Typhon Pact we have a situation that resembles the early 1900s where all the major world powers are tied into some treaty obligation where due to one bad move, the entire quadrant falls into war. This situation hasn't existed in Star Trek before because it never had so many alliances between so many powerful nations, some of which are expansionist and militaristic.

Pre 1914, no one expected the massive war that developed nor could they have predicted the scale on which that war was fought especially as a result of the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand.

I know you, Christopher, don't want to see Star Trek to become an ongoing war story/BSG, but that doesn't mean other stakeholders in Star Trek might want to take advantage of the powder keg situation and cause Galactic War 1 to break out.
I should like to respectfully suggest that you may be a touch limited in the scope of your imagination. The parallels you draw are not inapt to be certain. But I think perhaps you underestimate the authors and their commitment (as demonstrated by the stories they tell) to keeping Trek, Trek. It seems to me that rather than telling a story about as you call it Galactic War One, they seem to be using events both contemporary and historical to inspire a narrative that offers a potential guide, or at the very least some food for thought about how things might be guided in a direction other than perpetual warfare.

To me that is what Trek in all it's myriad guises and media has always done best. Not merely reflected back the times in which we live, but shown us the hope of a better path than the one we are on now.

I personally have not been this enthralled with the stories in Trek-Lit in some time as I am with the Typhon Pact storyline/status quo/plot device. I believe the future of written stories is in very good hands indeed and I do not think it possible, let alone probable that we will suddenly find ourselves looking at Trek turned BSG.
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Old July 3 2012, 12:32 AM   #160
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Stoek wrote: View Post

I should like to respectfully suggest that you may be a touch limited in the scope of your imagination. The parallels you draw are not inapt to be certain. But I think perhaps you underestimate the authors and their commitment (as demonstrated by the stories they tell) to keeping Trek, Trek.
There is no need to insult me and my imagination which I assure you is extremely healthy and capable of understanding a wide range of theories and concepts.

As I expressed, I understand that the authors I have had contact with have no desire to see Star Trek become a universe of continuous war stories but that doesn't mean editors and producers share that sentiment. Part of the theory behind the latest Trek films is Star Trek needs a little Star Wars. It is is easy to imagine Star Trek falling down the slope into warfare. It is easy to see how the foundation is laid for this to happen. I know the intention of creating the Typhon Pact by the authors who did so was not to create an adversary.

Most alliances are formed to prevent war rather than create it. But when events happen to foment war, those same alliances become a means of maintaining and growing it.
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Old July 3 2012, 12:41 AM   #161
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

"Galactic War One?" Come on. We've already had the Dominion War and the Borg Invasion within the past decade of story time, both of which were more cataclysmic than anything the Khitomer Allies and Typhon Pact could wage (since they're both still weakened from the Borg Invasion). So the First World War is a pretty disingenuous analogy. If any real-world analogy holds, it's the aftermath of WWII, the period after the hugest, most devastating war in history. In other words, the Cold War, which has obviously been a model for UFP/Pact relations from the start. A period when the world has already been through a cataclysmic war of unprecedented scope, and thus, despite tensions and technologies that create the risk of an even greater conflict, the dominant nations of the world do everything they can to avoid facing the horror of all-out warfare.

And to some extent, the Federation's weakened standing in the quadrant is a parallel with America's role in the present-day world, where its influence as a superpower is, if not waning, at least being questioned by the rest of the world and challenged -- more economically and culturally than militarily -- by China and perhaps India. Star Trek has always tried to be a commentary on the current state of the world.


MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
As I expressed, I understand that the authors I have had contact with have no desire to see Star Trek become a universe of continuous war stories but that doesn't mean editors and producers share that sentiment.
What have producers got to do with anything? Nobody's producing any shows or films in the Prime continuity, so there's no sense bringing producers into a discussion about the novelverse.

Part of the theory behind the latest Trek films is Star Trek needs a little Star Wars.
That's taking it way too literally. They meant the attitude and cinematic style of Star Wars, not the literal war part.


It is is easy to imagine Star Trek falling down the slope into warfare. It is easy to see how the foundation is laid for this to happen.
No, you just want to imagine that and so your interpretation of the evidence is profoundly biased to force that conclusion. You're refusing even to consider alternative possibilities, which is why you mistakenly imagine that your preferred possibility is overwhelmingly likely. It's classic expectation bias.
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Old July 3 2012, 01:05 AM   #162
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Actually, it's debatable whether or not WWI was in fact the first world war. Winston Churchill, for instance, considered the Seven Years' War (1756-1763) the first world war.

And if you look at the Seven Years' War's wikipedia entry:

The war was described as the first "world war",[3] though this label was also given to various earlier conflicts such as the Eighty Years' War, the Thirty Years' War, the Spanish War of Succession and the Austrian War of Succession, and to later conflicts such as the Napoleonic Wars.[4] As a partially Anglo-French conflict involving developing empires, the war was one of the most significant phases of the 18th century Second Hundred Years' War.[
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Old July 3 2012, 01:07 AM   #163
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I don't WANT to imagine the Typhon Pact and UFP going to war and as I've said, I know it was not created with that intent in mind so I am clearly not trying to force a conclusion nor is warfare my "preferred possibility". I am saying the 2 going to war is a real possibility, a possibilty that obviously the political leaders in the story fear and believe has a high possibility of happening.

I also think the political landscape more clsely resembles the early 1900s with the Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance than the situation of the United States and USSR in the Cold War. For one thing, the Soviet Union was controlled by the Kremlin with a dominant country controlling the rest whereas the Triple Alliance was a mutual defense pact with no country dominating the others. That doesn't mean a galcatic war has to happen as it did in Earth's past but it does lay the ground work for similar events to possibly happen.

I fail to see how I am "mistaken" by seeing this parallel. Obviously, Christipher, you wish to put motives and desires on me which I do not have which is extremely unfair when I have said that I recognize your desire to not see Star trek fall into war as well.
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Old July 3 2012, 01:18 AM   #164
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

One thing I cared for less about this novel (and PoN) is a very small, nitpicky thing, but I was surprised at how much I didn't care for a Starfleet ship being named the First Minister (and wasn't there a President too?); it makes sense to parallel the name "Sovereign," but they just seem too easily confusing.



Et cetera.

I don't know what it bothered me so much; I guess because it took me out of the story because the scenario described above went through my head.

Also, regarding the whole Galactic War I idea, I actually would be okay if the Typhon Pact arc did not so closely/obviously parallel key aspects of 20th century history. Would make it interesting. Not that it's excessively done at this point, but I don't think I really need much more.

Also, Christopher, I think MatthiasRussell is not that wrong calling a hypothetical Typhon Pact-Khitomer Accords war "Galactic War I"; yes, the Borg Invasion was certainly more destructive à la WWII, and the post-War era we're in now clearly parallels the Cold War. But the Borg Invasion was a bunch of powers against a single, unified opponent, unlike our two World Wars, which pitted multiple powers against each other (and particularly in the case of WWI, multiple alliances that were drawn into fighting one another), each power with a slightly different focus and agenda.

If anything, I'd say that the Dominion War was Galactic War I (WWI redux), the Borg Invasion was a natural/economic disaster à la the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression, and a hypothetical TP-KA war would be GWII (WWII redux). The Dominion War did have two alliances fighting each other, with each member of each alliance having a different goal and agenda, so that's why I count it as GWI. On the other hand, nearly half the powers in a hypothetical TP-KA war weren't involved at all in the Dominion War (KA: Ferengi Alliance, TP: Holy Order of the Kinshaya, Tholian Assembly, Tzenkethi Coalition, the Gorn Hegemony [sorta]), which, you could argue, would mean that a TP-KA war would be the first truly galactic war. Or would be closer to being an actual galactic war, anyway.
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Old July 3 2012, 02:07 AM   #165
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
One thing I cared for less about this novel (and PoN) is a very small, nitpicky thing, but I was surprised at how much I didn't care for a Starfleet ship being named the First Minister (and wasn't there a President too?); it makes sense to parallel the name "Sovereign," but they just seem too easily confusing.
I actually liked that. I liked to imagine that there are ships named for every head of state and head of government for Federation Member worlds. Like:
  • U.S.S. President (e.g., President of Trill)
  • U.S.S. First Minister (e.g., First Minister of Bajor)
  • U.S.S. Chancellor (e.g., Chancellor of Coridan)
  • U.S.S. Presider (e.g., Presider of Andor)
  • U.S.S. Governor (e.g., Governor of Betazed)
  • U.S.S. Caliph (e.g., Caliph of Koa)
  • U.S.S. Prime Minister (e.g., Prime Minister of United Earth)
  • U.S.S. Administrator (e.g., Administrator of Vulcan)
  • U.S.S. Leader (e.g., Leader of Zalda)
  • U.S.S. Chief Representative (e.g., Chief Representative of Alpha Proxima II)
Etc.
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