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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Raise the Dawn.
Outstanding 83 70.34%
Above Average 25 21.19%
Average 3 2.54%
Below Average 3 2.54%
Poor 4 3.39%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 1 2012, 10:15 PM   #136
Mage
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Dammit, after posted my post, I read what others had to say. And I couldn't agree more!! It's so good to see so many people so enthousiastic about this one!

Loved it, loved it, loved it!!! I almost want to go and read it again!
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Old July 1 2012, 11:53 PM   #137
Snaploud
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I assume Spock had nothing to add to the drama because his last interactions with Romulus involved sending a message to Bacco. He decided that the reunification movement would be better off without him. It would be nice to know what new venture he's pursuing, but that's probably better decided in another book.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:33 AM   #138
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I was really waiting for
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Old July 2 2012, 12:40 AM   #139
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I was really waiting for
Response:

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Old July 2 2012, 12:59 AM   #140
Christopher
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

CaptainDonovin wrote: View Post
I also like it that even though there were chances in here to start a new war that it didn't happen...
Yeah, I wonder what those readers who assume the Typhon Pact storyline is inevitably leading to war will make of this. This was the Cuban Missile Crisis for the UFP and the Pact, bringing them to the very brink of war, yet both sides avoided stepping over that brink and worked together to resolve things peacefully. Although I'm sure those readers will stubbornly insist that Kamemor is an aberration and is sure to be assassinated soon, etc. etc. Never mind that she's successfully purged the Romulan government of those working against her peacemaking agenda and has transcended the Tzenkethi's intended role for her as a weak, easily manipulated leader.


If the novels follow what happened in the Countdown comics (which they could ignore some of it) I think there is a different Praetor by 2387 which isn't far off now.
As someone else mentioned, the novels are under no obligation to acknowledge anything from Countdown (except those elements that were actually in the 2009 film). I just hope that Kamemor is offworld when the supernova wavefront hits. Given that they did have some advance warning, they probably had time to evacuate the government -- though Kamemor's just the type who'd go down with her ship rather than take a seat on the lifeboat that could be used to save someone else.



dispatcher812 wrote: View Post
What I don't get is why O'Brien is still just a Chief. You would think that after all the casualties and the need for experienced officers they would have promoted him.
He's already a senior chief petty officer -- there's only one higher enlisted rating, master chief petty officer. So by enlisted standards, he's already very near the top. To become an officer, he'd have to go to Starfleet Academy for several years, and that would be a waste of his valuable time. There's no need for everyone to be an officer, since enlisted personnel serve a vital role as well. A master chief is nominally subordinate to any commissioned officer, but in practice has the experience and authority to be considered a senior officer. And O'Brien has always been treated as a senior officer in DS9's crew even as an SCPO.

Granted, "Master Chief O'Brien" would have a nice ring to it...


Another thing I don't Understand is why this book and Plagues of Night labeled TNG.
Uhh, they're not. They're labeled Star Trek: Typhon Pact.



Shon T'Hara wrote: View Post
Why wasn't the Federation willing to return Odo to the Dominion?
Because the writer or editor wanted Odo to be a regular part of the cast again.


starri wrote: View Post
Yeah DS9 and Bajor are kinda irrelevant now without the wormhole.
Not necessarily. DS9 was the staging ground for the relief efforts to Cardassia after the war, and now that the Cardassians are more closely allied with the Federation, it will probably become an important waypoint between the two.
Not to mention that Bajor has become an important Federation world in its own right. Remember, Sisko's mission from the start, even before the wormhole was discovered, was to facilitate Bajor's recovery and entry into the Federation, because of all the Bajoran people had to offer the UFP as members. The quadrant may have come to Bajor for the wormhole, but they'll stay for everything else that Bajor has come to represent and everything its civilization has to offer.

Also, Bajor is one of the closest Federation worlds to Tzenkethi and Breen space, good for keeping an eye on the more hostile elements of the Pact, and centrally located to facilitate trade among the Khitomer Accords partners, particularly the Cardassians and Ferengi.

Anyway, I doubt the wormhole is permanently gone. After all, its inhabitants don't exist in linear time. Their existence is a constant throughout all time, so they certainly can't be destroyed. True, the terminus points of the wormhole exist in linear spacetime and can be altered, but the interior realm and its inhabitants will always be there, and I expect they can recreate the termini at will, even if it takes a while as we perceive it.
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Old July 2 2012, 02:52 AM   #141
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hmm, been a while since I looked at a quality star map so I am not really sure where the Khitomer Allies are located relative to the Typhon Pact Members.
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Old July 2 2012, 06:24 AM   #142
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I haven't read the books, so I don't know if this is addressed, but wouldn't Slipstream make the wormhole unnecessary for travel? I could still see DS9 being important as a last stop in Federation space though.
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Old July 2 2012, 07:10 AM   #143
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

So far slipstream has been pretty limited in that it either requires a custom built ship or extensive modifications to work. And there are ship types where the Federation can't get it to work in at all, I think.
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Old July 2 2012, 07:44 AM   #144
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Wormhole is pretty much instant and allows you to move a whole fleet so nah still pretty darn useful
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Old July 2 2012, 01:38 PM   #145
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

shanejayell wrote: View Post
So far slipstream has been pretty limited in that it either requires a custom built ship or extensive modifications to work. And there are ship types where the Federation can't get it to work in at all, I think.
Also it relies on a rare crystalline substance called benamite. There isn't enough available to equip the entire fleet.
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Old July 2 2012, 03:46 PM   #146
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

De-lurking for the moment to register an alternate reaction to the book. While any and perhaps all of the changes to the DS9 characters and universe have good potential, I found the scope of the "crisis" which triggered those changes underwhelming. The book itself acknowledges that once the fleet is rebuilt in a few years, it won't matter that the Typhon Pact has slipstream.* So making that the catalyst for dramatic changes felt to me bland -- this is what Kira's life is ending/being transformed over? This is what the wormhole is closing over? This is what Odo is racing against time and being stranded for? In addition, the big standoff in the wormhole didn't make sense. It's not like immediately upon arrival with the Dominion technology the TP could have started churning out slipstream ships. Why not cloak the Defiant, let the Romulans go through, follow them through the TP wormhole to the Tzenkethi station, then call in reinforcements and capture or destroy the station? (It was also exhausting for me to read a _third_ book where the TP acquiring slipstream is the focus of the action. It makes in-universe sense that they would keep trying, but as a plot device felt repetitive.)

Also, the missing five years were keenly felt. Wouldn't it have been great to see the Eav'oq or the Even Odds or Taranatar come to Odo's ship's rescue? What was Raiq and Kira's relationship, and what will happen to Raiq in Kira's absence? What was Sisko's last contact with the Prophets, and why didn't they tell him that he had completed his tasks, or why didn't he sense it?

Also, how can Sisko so easily leave Bajor? Just because he is disconnected from the Prophets and the wormhole should not eradicate the emotional and social ties he spent more than a decade building up. And as many have already noted, it doesn't make in-universe sense for Starfleet not to use slipstream to continue exploring the non-Dominion parts of the Gamma Quadrant (they sent a whole fleet to the Delta quadrant after all, where there was no official Federation contact, as opposed to many civilizations in the GQ where the Federation had officially opened relations). Whether Odo wants to return or not is a question worth exploring, but it is highly unlikely that he is "stranded" in the AQ.

In short, although the book was richly written, and the non-DS9 elements were by-and-large excellent, I couldn't help but feel that the series and characters were dragged along for a ride that they (or I) hadn't been properly prepared to take.

* I can't find the reference right now to check whether this statement was made even after it was known that the TP would have been able to equip all of their ships with the technology as opposed to the Federation's more limited deployment of slipstream. But (a) if the Typhon Pact can figure it out using Dominion technology, then certainly the Federation can do so, and there are all sorts of reasons in Odo/the Dominion's self-interest to give the necessary technology to the Federation and (b) where is the TP going to get all the benamite to power slipstream on all of their ships?
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Old July 2 2012, 04:57 PM   #147
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hotshot2000 wrote: View Post
De-lurking for the moment to register an alternate reaction to the book. While any and perhaps all of the changes to the DS9 characters and universe have good potential, I found the scope of the "crisis" which triggered those changes underwhelming. The book itself acknowledges that once the fleet is rebuilt in a few years, it won't matter that the Typhon Pact has slipstream.* So making that the catalyst for dramatic changes felt to me bland -- this is what Kira's life is ending/being transformed over? This is what the wormhole is closing over? This is what Odo is racing against time and being stranded for?
Remember what Kira said to Sisko in the vision. You can't step into the same river twice. If Sisko had spent his life with Kasidy starting back then, during the Dominion War, he would've known only sorrow; but if he spends his life with her starting now, the circumstances are different so the outcome won't be the same.

By analogy, the danger isn't the Pact getting slipstream ever; the danger is the Pact getting slipstream now. If they got it now, while the Federation and its allies were still below full strength and while the warmongering faction within the Pact was still potent enough to run rings around the moderates like Kamemor, then the consequence would've been a war that tore the quadrant apart and caused serious long-term harm to both alliances. But if they get it later, when the Khitomer Allies are stronger and the moderates within the Pact are in a better position to hold the surviving militants in check, then the long-term consequences will be nowhere near as dire.

So yes, it was important to the long-term future to stop them from getting slipstream now (meaning 2383), even knowing that they will have it eventually. Context is important.



In addition, the big standoff in the wormhole didn't make sense. It's not like immediately upon arrival with the Dominion technology the TP could have started churning out slipstream ships. Why not cloak the Defiant, let the Romulans go through, follow them through the TP wormhole to the Tzenkethi station, then call in reinforcements and capture or destroy the station?
Well, for one thing, they had no idea what would actually be there at the other end of the new wormhole. There could've been a whole fleet with a tachyon detection grid of its own, or they could've had subspace jamming in effect as they did in the Gamma Quadrant. And there's no guarantee those reinforcements could've come soon enough to prevent the Romulan ship from spiriting the Dominion components away into deep Pact territory.


(It was also exhausting for me to read a _third_ book where the TP acquiring slipstream is the focus of the action. It makes in-universe sense that they would keep trying, but as a plot device felt repetitive.)
Well, technically it's only the second story about that, and it ties in the events of Zero Sum Game so closely that it's essentially a single story arc.


Also, how can Sisko so easily leave Bajor? Just because he is disconnected from the Prophets and the wormhole should not eradicate the emotional and social ties he spent more than a decade building up.
He has his responsibilities to Starfleet and the Robinson. Officers in Starfleet can't just pack up and go wherever they feel like; they go where they're ordered to go, where their duty takes them.


And as many have already noted, it doesn't make in-universe sense for Starfleet not to use slipstream to continue exploring the non-Dominion parts of the Gamma Quadrant (they sent a whole fleet to the Delta quadrant after all, where there was no official Federation contact, as opposed to many civilizations in the GQ where the Federation had officially opened relations).
Sure, in theory. But as stated above, there's only a finite number of slipstream ships and they have to use the drive sparingly due to the limited amount of benamite that exists. (Which is part of the reason the Pact's fear of the technology as a game-changer was exaggerated.) So I'd assume it's more a question of availability than one of will. Although I agree it would make sense to allocate a slipstream ship to take Odo back to the Dominion as soon as one became available.


(b) where is the TP going to get all the benamite to power slipstream on all of their ships?
I don't think it was ever the plan to put slipstream on all their ships. The idea was that the ability to retrofit existing ships would let them create a slipstream fleet faster than they could if they had to design and build whole new ships from scratch. So they could catch up with the UFP faster and gain an edge on it in future slipstream vessel construction.
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Old July 2 2012, 06:33 PM   #148
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
I wonder what those readers who assume the Typhon Pact storyline is inevitably leading to war will make of this. This was the Cuban Missile Crisis for the UFP and the Pact, bringing them to the very brink of war, yet both sides avoided stepping over that brink and worked together to resolve things peacefully. Although I'm sure those readers will stubbornly insist that Kamemor is an aberration and is sure to be assassinated soon, etc. etc. Never mind that she's successfully purged the Romulan government of those working against her peacemaking agenda and has transcended the Tzenkethi's intended role for her as a weak, easily manipulated leader.
I'm one of those who thought war was inevitable. It looked like it was from within the fictional universe. The only thing that prevented war was Kamemor coming to Earth. If she were not such a skilled diplomat and taken that risk, I don't think Bacco could have held back war sentiment or even wanted to especially after the Romulans, Tzenkethi, and True Way returned with Dominion tech.

Even with that being the case, I'm not sure realistically if the efforts of Kamemor and Bacco could have held back war sentiment since the Typhon Pact were responsible for "destroying" the wormhole. Nothing gets the war juices flowing like religious sentiment and I'm sure the Bajorans would like retribution against the parties involved in eliminating the gateway to the celestrial temple. Hopefully this religious ferver appears in upcoming novels.

I would expect someone to attempt to assassinate Kamemor, especially among the Tzenkethi since she is upsetting the designs of very powerful individuals. However, I hope this doesn't happen because she is a very interesting Romulan and a major stablizing force for the quadrant.
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Old July 2 2012, 08:00 PM   #149
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

This is question for writers and editors: can other class ships beside the vesta be fitted with slipstream drive without a major overhaul and structural changes?
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Old July 2 2012, 08:17 PM   #150
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Re: Typhon Pact: Raise the Dawn by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Found myself caught in the Surprise Storm of 2012 this weekend with no power, no Internet, and no cell phone reception -- and so plenty of time to finish this book!

Loved it. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Others, especially Thrawn, have outlined in greater detail than I could hope to match what was so lovely about it. The scene where Kassidy tells Ben that she's come to understand and accept why he needs to be away from her was absolutely heartbreaking and wonderful. Loved the Kamemor/Bacco scenes. Loved the Sisko stuff, loved Kira's stuff, loved seeing Ro in charge. Loved it. I hope this is a great springboard for future DSN novels.
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