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Old July 1 2012, 09:31 PM   #856
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Is it true this is filmed in Iceland?
The scenes north of the wall once they got beyond Craster's Keep were filmed in Iceland. Most of the shoot is done in Northern Ireland, and they've also shot in Morocco and Croatia.
And Malta.
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Old July 1 2012, 09:34 PM   #857
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

^^^
Thought I was forgetting one. Thanks.
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Old July 1 2012, 10:54 PM   #858
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
That is true,Anwar. Talisa's somewhat high born, so Robb could have pissed off her family or ruined her reputation by slam, bam, thanking you ma'am-ing Talisa.
Doesn't hold water.

Robert had dozens of bastards, and more than a few upon highborn lasses. The people loved him and he had amazingly few enemies among the nobles considering he defeated half of them in the war.
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Old July 1 2012, 11:10 PM   #859
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Talisa is supposedly from a somewhat titled family. Besmirching an "important" woman is always going to be a different cup of tea. Robb Stark is supposedly more thoughtful and "honorable" than King Robert, though that wouldn't take much. Robert was a pig and a half.

I agree that Rob made a grave error in judgment going ahead and marrying Talisa; all I'm saying is that the impulsiveness is earned by how the character's been presented as an emotional man torn being honor and his extreme anger at his mother for letting Jamie Lannister go. Okay, mother, you did what you want, so I'm doing what I wish. I think he cares for Talisa, but it's an impulsive, emotional decision that he made after anger, grief, and sex clouded his judgment. I find the character so interesting in that he can turn off his emotions on the battlefield, sic wolves on people, be a supposed tactical wizard, but in his personal life he doesn't have much wisdom. Robb Stark, I gather, is supposed to be a younger man than the actor portraying the character appears to be. He's what? A year or so older than the supposedly 17 year old Jon at most? The actor is at least 25.

After Ned's death, it's Catelyn who holds it together but Robb is destroying his sword on a tree in a fit of despair. It's as if battle is his outlet to hold the emotions at bay. I like the actor himself; I think he does a great job with the material, but a younger actor might have made more sense in terms of the actions of his character.

As for Jon, I think the Lyanna Stark/Targaeryan as biological parents is plausible the more I think about it. When Danaerys was having her visions in the House of the Dying or whatever it was called, she envisioned the Iron Throne room covered in snow. A male Targaeryan would supercede her claim to the throne. Very interesting.

Malta's architecture is very Islamic in appearance, isn't it? Qarth's scenes seem to fit that description. Thanks for the info. HBO must have quite a budget for this with all the exotic location shooting.
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Old July 1 2012, 11:33 PM   #860
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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Malta's architecture is very Islamic in appearance, isn't it? Qarth's scenes seem to fit that description. Thanks for the info. HBO must have quite a budget for this with all the exotic location shooting.
Malta was a filming location in the first season. The second season shifted to Croatia, which proved versatile enough to stand in for Qarth as well as many of the Kings Landing exteriors. The first season had a budget of around $60 million and the second season a budget of around $69 million.
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Old July 1 2012, 11:50 PM   #861
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

As far as superseding Daenerys' claim goes, any child - male or female - of Rhaegar would automatically supersede her.

That is, she's a daughter of King Aerys, while Rhaegar was the crown prince - he is her brother. In these kind of dynasties, inheritance passes from firstborn son to firstborn son - so a king's grandson would ascend to the throne instead of his secondborn son.

Venardhi wrote: View Post
Robert had dozens of bastards, and more than a few upon highborn lasses.
I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl. While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.

...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:02 AM   #862
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Talisa is supposedly from a somewhat titled family. Besmirching an "important" woman is always going to be a different cup of tea. Robb Stark is supposedly more thoughtful and "honorable" than King Robert, though that wouldn't take much. Robert was a pig and a half.
I think that is being overly critical of Robert, but in any case her family is pretty much a non-factor. Besides that, he had decided to marry her before he even slept with her.
I agree that Rob made a grave error in judgment going ahead and marrying Talisa; all I'm saying is that the impulsiveness is earned by how the character's been presented as an emotional man torn being honor and his extreme anger at his mother for letting Jamie Lannister go. Okay, mother, you did what you want, so I'm doing what I wish. I think he cares for Talisa, but it's an impulsive, emotional decision that he made after anger, grief, and sex clouded his judgment. I find the character so interesting in that he can turn off his emotions on the battlefield, sic wolves on people, be a supposed tactical wizard, but in his personal life he doesn't have much wisdom. Robb Stark, I gather, is supposed to be a younger man than the actor portraying the character appears to be. He's what? A year or so older than the supposedly 17 year old Jon at most? The actor is at least 25.
They're almost exactly the same age. Which would put the characters around 18/19 at the end of Season 2. Robb was conceived during the war, immediately after his parents were married (to cement the Tullys into the rebellion) and born during or right after the war while Ned was still in the south. He came back with the infant Jon shortly after. Of course, since the ages are a little wonky if you try to use the book timeline for the show this may not be entirely accurate for it.
After Ned's death, it's Catelyn who holds it together but Robb is destroying his sword on a tree in a fit of despair. It's as if battle is his outlet to hold the emotions at bay. I like the actor himself; I think he does a great job with the material, but a younger actor might have made more sense in terms of the actions of his character.
Absolutely. Which is why him being 15 or 16 when these events happened in the book (with a high-born Westerosi whose castle he had just taken and had been tending to his wounds and was likely unknowingly sent to his bed by her father as a honey trap) makes so much more sense.
As for Jon, I think the Lyanna Stark/Targaeryan as biological parents is plausible the more I think about it. When Danaerys was having her visions in the House of the Dying or whatever it was called, she envisioned the Iron Throne room covered in snow. A male Targaeryan would supercede her claim to the throne. Very interesting.
Her visions as described in the book are a bit more obvious (and a lot more abstract), which is probably why they were toned down so much. Martin does a fantastic job seeding the series with clues without ever really raising the question for people to ask. The show has been much less successful with such subtlety. Seems like everything is either completely spelled out or so subtle as to be pointless to anyone who hasn't read the books.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:10 AM   #863
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Man, I want to see Catelyn's reaction when she inevitably finds out that Jon is her husband's nephew as opposed to his bastard son. I rewatched episodes 1 and 2 on live streaming. I'd forgotten how cold she was to Jon. Again, I understand her anger but it's completely misdirected. It should be directed at Ned for his (believed) sins. Pretty presumptuous to bring home your bastard son and expect your wife to raise him. Nothing like a living breathing reminder of your spouse's infidelity to put you in a good mood, but Jon was presented as so meek and polite. It's hard not to judge her a little bit. Not loving him like your own child is one thing, but those looks of hers could kill.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:10 AM   #864
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Venardhi, love the theory about Lyanna Stark being Jon's mother. That would explain both his devotion to Jon and his keeping the secret from Cat. She might not want a Targearyean child in the house with her children.
The bigger problem is Robert. If he found out that Jon was a Targ then Jon would die. Either Robert would order Ned to slaughter the baby himself, or more likely he would order Ned to stand down and let one of the Kingsguard to the killing. Ned would have to choose between murdering his nephew (he isn't going to let anyone else swing the blade, his honor demands that either he does it personally or it doesn't get done) or engage in an open rebellion against his best friend the King. That would be a hard choice to make, but he'd probably choose family over honor in the end and the result would be a giant clusterfuck in which he has to put Jon on the iron throne and name himself regent in order to settle the matter. While there are still pro-Targ loyalists in Westeros, particularly most of Dorne, who would throw their lot in with Jon once his parantage has been revealed, the war would be far more close and costly and bloody than Robert's Rebellion, due to Robert's close alliance with the Lannisters who will support him. More importantly, it would mean that Ned would have to kill his best friend. And he doesn't want to do that, either.

He keeps it a secret from Cat, even though the supposed adultry is a giant sore-spot for her, because one can keep a secret better than two. If she hates him for siring a bastard on some random whore and bringing the kid home, that just sells the cover story all the more. It also means that she won't slip up and accidentally say the wrong thing to the wrong person.


Tyrion defines cool. He's more of a knight on the inside than the knights. He's not cruel to anyone who doesn't have it coming. Peter Dinklage is the lone American in the cast now, no? Is it true this is filmed in Iceland?
Croatia.

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
As for Jon, I think the Lyanna Stark/Targaeryan as biological parents is plausible the more I think about it. When Danaerys was having her visions in the House of the Dying or whatever it was called, she envisioned the Iron Throne room covered in snow. A male Targaeryan would supercede her claim to the throne. Very interesting.
Not necessarily. Rhaegar was never the King. Technically, the order of succession would go Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, then Rhaegar's children. And her biggest supporter would be Dorne, which gives women equal inheritance rights (a big plot point in later books). Of course, when you've got a civil war. In the current situation the rightful ruler is whomever can kick the most ass and kill the most people, no matter who that may be. Dany currently has a massive advantage in that regard due to being the only person on the planet with air power. It's the same reason Aegon was the rightful ruler of Westeros when he was just some upstart foreigner of middling rank from an unimportant island in the middle of the Narrow Sea.

The snow covering the Iron Throne in a broken keep is less likely to be a metaphore for Jon Snow being the rightful heir and more an accurate vision of one possible future, the one where the White Walkers win at the end of book 6 and book 7 is 1500 pages of a cold wind howling over a desolate lifeless and frozen wasteland.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:15 AM   #865
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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Not necessarily. Rhaegar was never the King. Technically, the order of succession would go Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, then Rhaegar's children.
As I just said, the order would go: Rhaegar, Rhaegar's children, Viserys, Dany. That Rhaegar was never King does not mean his children do not have priority.

The real issue regarding Jon's Targaryen heritage equaling throne is whether or not he's still considered a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne. He would have to have either been somehow also married to Lyanna for a brief time, or Jon would need to be legitimized.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:15 AM   #866
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kegg wrote: View Post
As far as superseding Daenerys' claim goes, any child - male or female - of Rhaegar would automatically supersede her.

That is, she's a daughter of King Aerys, while Rhaegar was the crown prince - he is her brother. In these kind of dynasties, inheritance passes from firstborn son to firstborn son - so a king's grandson would ascend to the throne instead of his secondborn son.

Venardhi wrote: View Post
Robert had dozens of bastards, and more than a few upon highborn lasses.
I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl. While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.

...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
Fair enough.

I seem to recall mention or suggestion of other highborn girls he 'dishonored', but I suppose that doesn't mean there were necessarily any resulting children.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:18 AM   #867
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kegg wrote: View Post
As far as superseding Daenerys' claim goes, any child - male or female - of Rhaegar would automatically supersede her.
Any legitimate child. If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child but the two weren't married, Jon is still a bastard, and doesn't automatically have a better claim than Daenerys (although depending on their gender attitudes, some people might still think his claim was stronger).

Edit: I see this was brought up as I typed.
Venardhi wrote: View Post
Robert had dozens of bastards, and more than a few upon highborn lasses.
I think Edric Storm is the only bastard he had by a highborn girl.
It's tricky. Mya Stone's mother was also presumably highborn, or Mya wouldn't have a last name, but the way Mya's birth is described, while it's not explicit either way, doesn't seem to suggest a highborn mother.
While he didn't marry her, was was required to recognize the child as his - as opposed to say Gendry and Bara.
I don't know that "required" is the word; "expected" might be better. But that's a quibble. Anyway, in that case, there was also the fact that Edric Storm's mother was a virgin before Robert seduced her. Whether Talisa is supposed to have been a virgin I leave as an exercise for people who don't find the character inherently ridiculous.

...which, yeah, is totally something Robb could have done.
I haven't watched the episodes since they aired, and I wasn't paying the closest attention to that plotline at the time, so I can't speak to TV Robb's thought processes. But I think that in terms of the books, it's worth considering that he elected not to risk a bastard child in part because he had seen the awkward effects of Jon's upbringing at Winterfell on both Jon and Catelyn, and didn't want to repeat those unfortunate circumstances.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:19 AM   #868
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Croatia.
Northern Ireland, Croatia and Iceland for the second season.

Dorian Thompson wrote: View Post
Again, I understand her anger but it's completely misdirected. It should be directed at Ned for his (believed) sins. Pretty presumptuous to bring home your bastard son and expect your wife to raise him. Nothing like a living breathing reminder of your spouse's infidelity to put you in a good mood, but Jon was presented as so meek and polite. It's hard not to judge her a little bit. Not loving him like your own child is one thing, but those looks of hers could kill.
Her hostility towards him is toned down a lot in the show compared to the books. In the first book when Jon says goodbye to the comatose Bran, Catelyn tells Jon, "It should have been you."
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Old July 2 2012, 12:23 AM   #869
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

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It's tricky. Mya Stone's mother was also presumably highborn, or Mya wouldn't have a last name, but the way Mya's birth is described, while it's not explicit either way, doesn't seem to suggest a highborn mother.
I assumed she didn't have a highborn mother. We know that Robert didn't recognize her as his bastard, anyway, since IIRC him being the father is left as likely conjecture.

I don't know that "required" is the word; "expected" might be better. But that's a quibble.
That's true. It's the polite thing to do given the circumstances, is what I meant.
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Old July 2 2012, 12:27 AM   #870
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Kegg wrote: View Post
hyzmarca wrote: View Post
Not necessarily. Rhaegar was never the King. Technically, the order of succession would go Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany, then Rhaegar's children.
As I just said, the order would go: Rhaegar, Rhaegar's children, Viserys, Dany. That Rhaegar was never King does not mean his children do not have priority.

The real issue regarding Jon's Targaryen heritage equaling throne is whether or not he's still considered a bastard. Rhaegar was married to Elia of Dorne. He would have to have either been somehow also married to Lyanna for a brief time, or Jon would need to be legitimized.
We really don't have that much detail about Weteros's succession rules to be sure, but I concede the point.

However, that doesn't stop Dany from going 'I have Dragons, your claim is invalid.'

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