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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Storming Heaven.
Outstanding 58 69.05%
Above Average 23 27.38%
Average 2 2.38%
Below Average 0 0%
Poor 1 1.19%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 21 2012, 10:58 AM   #241
Enterprise is Great
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just finished it a few minutes ago. I really enjoyed it and the whole series too.
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Old June 23 2012, 10:40 AM   #242
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
The Orions were killed for what they knew, the same reason T'Prynn was given to terminate Quinn. Nogura followed his orders, T'Prynn did not.
If T'Prynn had been told to exterminate the Orions...do you think she would have disobeyed the order?

It was more than just about "what they knew". It was what kind of people there were and what kind of threat they might be with said information.

No, they were not the same.

And comparing the situation with the UFP and the Shedai with the Shedai and the Tholians...again, context matters.

Were the Tholians seeking to exterminate the Shedai? Were they even capable of it?

That WAS the case with the Shedai, and Starfleet was not even knowingly torturing them. Imprisoning them, yes. And I'm totally cool with that, considering what free roaming Shedai usually meant.
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Old June 23 2012, 09:05 PM   #243
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The Orions had an agreement with Reyes that Nogura allowed to stand that what happened on the Orion ship was not subject ro Starfleet control. Reyes took advantage of that when he sought asylum. Nogura let that continue for a while until he sent armed Starfleet personnel aboard and 1) tried to extract Reyes and 2) killed Orion citizens aboard a vessel that Starfleet had agreed was not under their jurisdiction. What Nogura did was nothing less than murder.

After that I wouldn't trust Starfleet any further than I could throw a Starbase.
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Old June 23 2012, 09:19 PM   #244
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
The Orions had an agreement with Reyes that Nogura allowed to stand that what happened on the Orion ship was not subject ro Starfleet control. Reyes took advantage of that when he sought asylum. Nogura let that continue for a while until he sent armed Starfleet personnel aboard and 1) tried to extract Reyes and 2) killed Orion citizens aboard a vessel that Starfleet had agreed was not under their jurisdiction. What Nogura did was nothing less than murder.

After that I wouldn't trust Starfleet any further than I could throw a Starbase.
Wrong. I refer you to page 139 of What Judgments Come, in which it is revealed that the order to send armed Starfleet personnel aboard for the failed extraction attempt came from Admiral Komack at Starfleet Security, who bypassed Nogura's authority and went straight to Vanguard's security chief with confidential orders.

There are many decisions made by Nogura whose morality can be debated, but it's grossly unfair for you to tar him with blame for a decision he never made.
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Old June 23 2012, 09:32 PM   #245
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

OK, I stand corrected. However that simply shifts the blame from one branch of Starfleet to another. Either way, Starfleet doesn't come out of the vanguard affair looking like a force for good. Hopefully it won't be revealed at some point that the SFI was actually full of Section 31 operatives. Easy out. It's too bad that vanguard is done. There's a number of cans of worms that have been opened at this point.


By the way Mr. Mack, to you and your co-authors, well done! The Vanguard saga was a heck of a ride! I would have loved to see more of the Sagittarius and her crew but hopefully we can get something about them in the future (or the past ).
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Old June 23 2012, 09:43 PM   #246
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

One never knows. If the right idea and opportunity were to arise, such a thing might be possible. But before anyone reads too much into that statement, let me be clear: at this time there are no plans for more books featuring any of the Vanguard-original characters or ships.
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Old June 23 2012, 10:41 PM   #247
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I won't hold you to it but I'll keep my fingers crossed. I'd love an anthology or even a series that featured the smaller, unsung elements of Starfleet. The small scouts, the remote stations, the distant outposts. The people that do most of the real work but get little of the attention or the glory that the big ships get.
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Old June 23 2012, 10:45 PM   #248
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ You could argue SCE did that plenty ... not that it did it enough, mind you; I too want more, of SCE specifically.
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Old June 23 2012, 10:48 PM   #249
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm thinking specifically of a TOS era series an showcasing a variety of ships and locations, not just the SCA although a SCA TOS story or two or three would fit as well. Just don't make it into "saving the universe" stuff. We've got enough of that in the TNG era. Smaller stories, more character, different locals, no guest stars. Stories that show small groups out alone in the dark without backup and how they deal with it.
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Old June 23 2012, 10:54 PM   #250
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

SCE actually did a couple of TOS-era novellas - that's where Vanguard got the USS Lovell from, in fact.

I actually didn't really go for TOS much in the past, but Vanguard changed that. As such I'd be open to smaller-scale, more localized stories in both eras.
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Old June 24 2012, 12:13 AM   #251
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
OK, I stand corrected. However that simply shifts the blame from one branch of Starfleet to another. Either way, Starfleet doesn't come out of the vanguard affair looking like a force for good.
And I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. What I personally am saying is that the real world doesn't always allow for sharply drawn black and white morality.

I like the fact that some Trek authors also create difficult scenarios that the characters must simply try to do their best with, using the information they have, the limitations they have, and their own best judgements.
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Old June 24 2012, 12:16 AM   #252
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I think it's pretty clear that the Vanguard saga was not meant to depict the Federation's finest hour, but rather was about revealing one of its darker secrets.
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Old June 24 2012, 01:16 AM   #253
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Understood on the "no promises or guarantees" caveat.

I wouldn't mind volumes featuring Capt. Khatami and her crew and/or Nogura's pre-Admiralty adventures, though.
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Old June 24 2012, 05:48 AM   #254
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Re: Vanguard: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think it's pretty clear that the Vanguard saga was not meant to depict the Federation's finest hour, but rather was about revealing one of its darker secrets.

Exactly. The anger and mistrust that has resulted in the creation of the Typhon Pact is not created out of the blue. It is a combination of things, but one strong one being that the UFP and Starfleet have stepped on their wangs and have fallen short of their principles at times, for whatever reason.

And people have remembered.
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Old July 16 2012, 04:46 PM   #255
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Re: VAN: Storming Heaven by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sorry for the late post, but did anyone notice researchers Cooper and Wolowitz ? I caught Hofstadter and Koothrappali, but not the other two...

Did they all survive ?

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