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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 21 2012, 03:42 PM   #91
C.E. Evans
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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For all we know, the original Yorktown captain and crew were reassigned to a new Excelsior-class ship with that name.
Doesn't really make a lot of sense based on the reaction of Kirk's senior staff upon seeing it. If they were already in production there would be nothing special about that ship to elicit that response.
I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.
The whole project was probably top-secret until Starfleet needed an actual port for the trial runs.
I doubt that, given how much Sulu and Kirk knew about it. It could simply have been built at another shipyard and then sent to Spacedock for her trial runs. Star Trek III was the first time Kirk and the gang finally saw her.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:43 PM   #92
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.
So Starfleet is building multiple Excelsior-class starships based on a technology that hasn't been proven in the field? I really don't think that's happening. They were just beginning trial runs in Star Trek III and we have no idea how much the tampering done by Scott set the project back. Star Trek IV takes place three-months after The Search for Spock and the ship is still sitting in Spacedock.

There is a huge gap in the history of the ship between 2286-90. In 2293, Sulu states they've completed a three-year survey mission and in The Undiscovered Country the Excelsior is using traditional warp drive by all accounts I've seen. She may have been spaceworthy prior to 2290, but I imagine quite a bit of time was spent swapping out transwarp drive for traditional equipment which also had to be tested in the new design.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:49 PM   #93
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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Actually, we don't know that at all. All we know is that Excelsior was the first. A second Exclesior-class ship could have been waiting in the wings in the final stages of construction at the time of Star Trek IV, and that ship became the new Yorktown.
So Starfleet is building multiple Excelsior-class starships based on a technology that hasn't been proven in the field?
That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.

Really, by the time a prototype completes her shakedown and enters actual service, mass production can begin at any time. NX-01 aside, the NX-designation for a prototype is really only necessary for a short period of time, IMO, and changing it to NCC is probably more an instance of doing it at a convenient time.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:49 PM   #94
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.
But these were people from throughout the Federation, at the time we know of only three Galaxy-class starships in service. Kirk and company were actually stationed on or around Earth.


I doubt that, given how much Sulu and Kirk knew about it. It could simply have been built at another shipyard and then sent to Spacedock for her trial runs. Star Trek III was the first time Kirk and the gang finally saw her.
Kirk is the Chief of Starfleet Operations and calls the vessel "The Great Experiment", so I doubt this is his first time seeing the vessel. He even knows that it is ready for trial runs:

The Search for Spock wrote:
My friends, the great experiment. The Excelsior, ready for trial runs.
Sulu sounds like someone who has heard rumors but nothing confirmed:

The Search for Spock wrote:
She's supposed to have transwarp drive.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:53 PM   #95
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.
And all were built with conventional warp theory in mind. Transwarp is suppose to be the next step, but is untried in the field.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:54 PM   #96
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

The structure of the Excelsior also changed along with it's registry number. If there were already more than one of her then why would Kirk refer to the ship as an experiment? And I have to disagree with the notion that Starfleet transferred the command crew off a ship to simply have better PR. Because that would be assuming that the Yorktown itself never did anything to garner the attention of people in the Federation. Our problem is that at that point we've seen only three designs in the motion picture era: Connie Refit, Miranda, Excelsior prototype, Excelsior production model and the Excelsior refit.

In 2293 when the Enterprise-B was launched that's only 7 years from NX-2000 to the Enterprise-B. And since the design of the E-B was so different than NCC-2000 you have to wonder, at that point and not knowing they would be the work horse of TNG, if there would really be that many Excelsior class ships around. And Excelsior herself was still in drydock in 2287, two years after it's first appearance. So while there may have been more on the planning boards or the beginning stages of being built there would be no Excelsior class Yorktown in 2286 to place old Yorktown's captain on.

As far as the public not caring about a hand me down being used for the name Enterprise I bet that there are those in Starfleet that would. Naval officers of our time are a very proud group in regards to the ships they serve. Let the current aircraft carrier USS Enterprise retire and then the navy slap the name on a tug boat and you betcha the public would care. I see the 23rd century being no different.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:57 PM   #97
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

I disagree. Starfleet personnel were still impressed with seeing the Enterprse-D, even though the Galaxy-class had presumably been in service for a while by then. Not everyone gets to see the newest ship-of-the-line design up close.
But these were people from throughout the Federation, at the time we know of only three Galaxy-class starships in service. Kirk and company were actually stationed on or around Earth.
But where they stationed at the shipyard where Excelsior was built? If not, then it's the first time they ever saw the vessel in person.
Kirk is the Chief of Starfleet Operations and calls the vessel "The Great Experiment", so I doubt this is his first time seeing the vessel.
A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.

And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.
Sulu sounds like someone who has heard rumors but nothing confirmed
Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.
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Old June 21 2012, 03:58 PM   #98
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

That's what they did the NX-class, the Galaxy-class, the Defiant-class.
And all were built with conventional warp theory in mind. Transwarp is suppose to be the next step, but is untried in the field.
But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.
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As far as the public not caring about a hand me down being used for the name Enterprise I bet that there are those in Starfleet that would.
The more important thing would be that the Enterprise lived on. At the time, it was recognizable to the Federation public and the Galaxy at large as a Constitution-class, so it would be a symbolic act.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:03 PM   #99
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.
The key word in what we're debating here is "experiment".


And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.
The Wrath of Khan wrote:

McCOY: Admiral? Wouldn't it be easier to just put an experienced crew back on the ship?
KIRK: Galloping about the cosmos is a game for the young, Doctor.
I would bet the intent is that Kirk is still Chief of Operations, he has knowledge and access to Project Genesis and seems to be in the know about the development and timetable for the Excelsior-class. At this point, he is probably serving as a command mentor to Spock.

Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.
Which supports it being one of a kind.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:05 PM   #100
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.
Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?
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Old June 21 2012, 04:07 PM   #101
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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A term that could have been coined by others before Kirk.
The key word in what we're debating here is "experiment".
Not really. The Excelsior is still a new design, so the term would still apply with or without transwarp.
And we actually don't know if Kirk is still Chief of Operations by Star Trek III. In Star Trek II, he was actually acting more like the Commandant of the Academy.
I would bet the intent is that Kirk is still Chief of Operations, he has knowledge and access to Project Genesis and seems to be in the know about the development and timetable for the Excelsior-class. At this point, he is probably serving as a command mentor to Spock.
I think the Chief of Operations has better things to do than to hang around the Academy, oversee a cadet taking the Kobayashi Maru test, and then going aboard a cadet cruise. But it would be befitting the Academy commandant.

And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?

Which would support it being a ship he's heard about but has never seen in person before.
Which supports it being one of a kind.
Not really, just the first one of its kind he's ever seen.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:12 PM   #102
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.
Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?

Nothing but onscreen stuff:
  • The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
  • Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
  • Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:13 PM   #103
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?
Not unless it's considered necessary for them to do their jobs. Project Genesis was a delicate situation, a commandant may know of it but wouldn't have access to hard data regarding the project.

Even in corporate America, a VP of Operations may have a general knowledge of what's going on in Finance. But he wouldn't have security clearance to go in and read their documentation at their leisure.

Kirk is still the Chief of Operations with that type of clearance.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:16 PM   #104
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

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And wouldn't most admirals of Kirk's rank have access to classified material upon request?
Not unless it's considered necessary for them to do their jobs. Project Genesis was a delicate situation, a commandant may know of it but wouldn't have access to hard data regarding the project.
I disagree. Within Starfleet, it seems if you have a high enough security clearance, you can access pretty much anything, especially if you're a flag officer.

I think there's more than enough evidence to support the idea of Kirk as being with the Academy by the time of Star Trek II.
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Old June 21 2012, 04:27 PM   #105
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Re: The operational status of NCC 1701-A...?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

But says only about transwarp drive. Otherwise, the Excelsior-class design had already been verified as being spaceworthy and ready for mass-production. The same would apply to the other starship classes.
Care to point to any evidence at all for this assertion? Canon? Non-canon?

Nothing but onscreen stuff:
  • The fact that there were three more NX-class ships being built while NX-01 was essentially on her maiden voyage.
  • Two other Galaxy-class ships in service alongside the Enterprise-D while the design was still considered fairly new within the fleet.
  • Other Defiant-class ships in service alongside the Defiant.
Once again, all of them were using engines that weren't quantum leaps over what came before. Transwarp is suppose to be a technological leap and I'm sure that the class was built around it. Power conduits had to be created that could handle the amount of power that flows through based on the obviously much larger power plant and warp nacelles.

You don't begin mass production until your sure the basic components of the design actually work. It's silly.

*When the Galaxy-class Enterprise launched, we have no idea how long the U.S.S. Galaxy had been in service nor do we know how long her trial runs were.

*The Defiant got an extended shakedown at Deep Space Nine before we began seeing others appear.

*Since the NX-02 was still being constructed four years after the launch of NX-01, I imagine they at least made sure the ship worked in trial runs before ordering more.
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