A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

[DarthPipes]

They've made Cersei a lot less of a one-dimensional character but I'm hoping we start seeing batshit Cersei in the upcoming seasons. GRRM showed some of this during Blackwater. It can be a fun characterization.

Tyrion mentally notes that if Cersei had had one child with Robert, she wouldn't be in the mess she's in.

Theon's victory was a brilliant coup but he was too obsessed with holding Winterfell. If he had put it to the torch and taken Bran, Rickon, the Reeds, and the two Freys hostage, he would have put the Iron Islands in a better position. Of course, I'm convinced Balon still wouldn't have given him any credit.

[CaptainCanada]

Brendan Moody wrote:

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I'm not sure Balon's decision was all that stupid. Putting aside the fact that the military aspect of his plan was much more easily achieved than what Robb wanted him to do, Robb's alliance scenario depended on the Lannisters (or whichever southern contender eventually triumphed) accepting the loss of the North, the riverlands, the Iron Islands, and at least part of the Westerlands. Balon's plan, on the other hand, involves the Seven Kingdoms losing "only" the Islands and the North. Still a bitter pill, but overall an easier one to swallow. Tyrion is at least not immediately opposed when he receives the offer (which, by the way, initially comes before the Battle of the Blackwater, not after). And later, Tywin's response to it is not rejection but to wait and see, because he has the Red Wedding in the planning stages. Balon's plan ultimately failed more because of that unlikely development, and because of later action by Theon (whose insistence on holding Winterfell and "killing" Bran and Rickon turned the North violently and permanently against the ironborn) and Euron (whose murder of Balon and claiming of the throne required Asha and Victarion to withdraw their occupying forces and attend the kingsmoot), than because it was flawed in conception.

Tywin didn't immediately reject it because there was no point in allying with Balon when he was already serving their interests by fighting the Starks, so best not to discourage him. The Lannisters are committed to ruling all the Seven Kingdoms. Once Robb is dealt with, there's no reason whatever to believe that they won't turn around and crush the Iron Islands too, which is easily within the power of the mainland forces, as was proved a decade earlier. Moreover, the Ironborn are a hostile power whose whole culture is based on reaving -- no holder of the Iron Throne would leave them independent for long.

Balon's plan isn't more militarily feasible, either, from a long-term perspective. Theon's taking Winterfell wasn't part of his original design, so his original plan of attack was basically to seize the two westernmost fortresses in the North (Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square) - Winterfell and the northern and eastern forts (Last Hearth, Karhold, the Dreadfort, White Harbour, etc.) were to be left unmolested, and even the modest forces assembled by the Dreadfort garrison were more than sufficient to retake Winterfell. Particularly when winter comes, there's no viable long-term strategy for holding only a couple of the north's eastern fortresses against all the rest, let alone making the whole country submit.

[Klaus]

Thoughts whilst rewatching... is Gendry's claim to the Iron Throne as good or better than Stannis' is?

[Shurik]

Klaus wrote:

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Thoughts whilst rewatching... is Gendry's claim to the Iron Throne as good or better than Stannis' is?

Gendry is a bastard, he has no claim to the throne unless someone legitimizes his.

[CaptainCanada]

Klaus wrote:

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Thoughts whilst rewatching... is Gendry's claim to the Iron Throne as good or better than Stannis' is?

Bastards have no claim to the throne at all, unless they are legitimized.

Now, in real-life, being a royal bastard has more than a few times led to taking the throne, or making the attempt.

[Kegg]

CaptainCanada wrote:

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Bastards have no claim to the throne at all, unless they are legitimized.

Which can be done by anyone considered to have the authority. Robert could have legitimized any one of his bastards in death, and Stannis does offer to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark (and thus automatically confer on him a claim on the title Lord of Winterfell). Probably useful to distinguish here between recognized bastards and legitimate bastards - Edric Strom is Robert's only recognized bastard, and he recognized him because his mother was highborn. He hasn't formally recognized his other bastards, and if he legitimized Edric he'd be Edric Baratheon and have a direct claim on the throne.

So anyway hypothetically all you need to use a bastard to put a claim on the throne is to have someone with sufficient authority legitimize them.

Now, in real-life, being a royal bastard has more than a few times led to taking the throne, or making the attempt.

Of course. In fact one bastard son of the Duke of Normandy did rather well for himself, inheriting first his father's duchy and subsequently going on to successfully seize the English throne.

[Klaus]

Ty all, I figured that was it... I only have one question.

What is this "real life" you speak of? I keep hearing people talk about it...

[Evil Twin]

Klaus wrote:

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What is this "real life" you speak of? I keep hearing people talk about it...

It's been on for while (rebooted a few times, I believe the current incarnation is currently in the middle of its 2,012th season) but honestly it's pretty overrated. I wouldn't recommend it. Personally, I found it got pretty dull ever since the epic story arc of the 1,939th - 1,945th seasons wrapped (although the ending was sort of a deus ex machina letdown.)

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ I'll give it a couple more seasons until I pass judgment. Rumors on the web say that this season might end with a real bang - but I think it's unfounded hype, myself...

[Kegg]

137th Gebirg wrote:

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Rumors on the web say that this season might end with a real bang -

That's just a fringe fan theory. Great grist for the fanfiction mill I'm sure, but I really doubt TPTB are going in that direction this year.

[Klaus]

Evil Twin wrote:

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It's been on for while (rebooted a few times, I believe the current incarnation is currently in the middle of its 2,012th season) but honestly it's pretty overrated. I wouldn't recommend it. Personally, I found it got pretty dull ever since the epic story arc of the 1,939th - 1,945th seasons wrapped (although the ending was sort of a deus ex machina letdown.)

Hmm.. my sources cite this as about the 4 and a half billionth season.

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Other fringe elements of the fan base say it's only been on for about 6,000 seasons or so, give or take...

[Kegg]

Well, we never get any reruns so who cares.

[Venardhi]

Klaus wrote:

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Hmm.. my sources cite this as about the 4 and a half billionth season.

The series rebooted with the advent of man, the premiere episode "Fire" was clearly intended to be a new starting point. The other series is still in continuity but you don't need to have seen it to enjoy the current production.

[CaptainCanada]

Kegg wrote:

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So anyway hypothetically all you need to use a bastard to put a claim on the throne is to have someone with sufficient authority legitimize them.

In that instance the person doing the legitimizing would presumably be the one who already holds (or claims) the throne, so it's not really clear why they'd want to legitimize a rival claimant.