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Old June 19 2012, 03:19 AM   #166
exodus
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Tiberius wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Nope. They were given a "genetic inheritance."

And the Rubber Tree People in the 24th century rainforest had cranial ridges.

Now that's a stupid plothole. Unknown tribe of RFAs managed to survive to the 24th century without detection. Sounds like a Weekly World News cover story to me.

Perhaps I'm related to Bat Boy?
I don't see that "Genetic inheritance" means "not Human."

What if it was correcting a flaw in their genes that would make the susceptible to a disease? Would that make them not Human?
That's not even close to the case here.
The ep. shows and states that the Native American's were mentally challenged but because they respected nature, the aliens "blessed" them with average intelligence. That's a very racist picture they paint because it's calling Native American's savages and incapable of evolving mentally as well as every other race and culture on Earth.
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Old June 19 2012, 03:33 PM   #167
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

exodus wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
Nope. They were given a "genetic inheritance."

And the Rubber Tree People in the 24th century rainforest had cranial ridges.

Now that's a stupid plothole. Unknown tribe of RFAs managed to survive to the 24th century without detection. Sounds like a Weekly World News cover story to me.

Perhaps I'm related to Bat Boy?
I don't see that "Genetic inheritance" means "not Human."

What if it was correcting a flaw in their genes that would make the susceptible to a disease? Would that make them not Human?
That's not even close to the case here.
The ep. shows and states that the Native American's were mentally challenged but because they respected nature, the aliens "blessed" them with average intelligence. That's a very racist picture they paint because it's calling Native American's savages and incapable of evolving mentally as well as every other race and culture on Earth.
I have to disagree with that interpretation.

The ep seems to discuss early Cro-Magnon man on the eastern hemisphere of the planet that have yet to develop a culture, not a mentally deficient race. Think many thousands of years ago, like when the reimagined Battlestar Galactica first landed on "our" earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

ALIEN: 43,000 years ago, on our first visit to your world, we met a small group of nomadic hunters. They had no spoken language, no culture, except the use of fire and stone weapons. But they did have a respect for the land and for other living creatures that impressed us deeply. We decided to give them an inheritance, a genetic bonding so they might thrive and protect your world. On subsequent visits, we found that our genetic gift brought about a spirit of curiosity and adventure. It impelled them to migrate away from the cold climate to a new, unpeopled land. It took them almost a thousand generations to cross your planet. Hundreds of thousands of them flourished in their new land. Their civilization had a profound influence on others of your species. But then, new people came with weapons and disease. The Inheritors who survived scattered. Many sought refuge in other societies. Twelve generations ago, when we returned, we found no sign of their existence.


Note the alien says "your species" to Chakotay, a descendant of these gifted humans. By saying "your", the "gifted" Chak is included among all earth's "nongifted" children, which suggested to me the Inheritors are just as human as the rest of the race.

If you want to roll your eyes at alien influences, imagine what nuBSG is saying at the end of its run. That our species was basically a combination of cylon/human DNA and earth neanderthal (100,000 years ago) DNA.
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Old June 19 2012, 05:10 PM   #168
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Even using your interpretation, we're talking stereotypes...

The Ecological Indian, so peaceful & living at all times in tune with the earth. *cue cheezy flute music*

It's not true. It's not real.

A "positive" stereotype is still a stereotype. It lumps all American Indians into this amorphus blob, ignoring that the cultures of 500-plus different nations are going to be very different from one another. It ignores the fact that, for example, California Indians fished some species to extinction long before white settlers arrived.

And given the bloody history of the Indians of the Central American rainforest, it seems that the Sky Spirits were more concerned with living lightly on the land than they were about human sacrifice & ritual war.
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Old June 19 2012, 06:12 PM   #169
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Cold Fire

I like it that Tuvok is mentoring Kes. When Kes tells Tuvok that she is hearing Neelix’s thoughts he kind of cringes; I don’t know why but that made me laugh! I know people tend not to like Neelix, but he cracks me up. He is so aloof, but he is also incredibly well-informed and helpful to the crew! After her studies Kes was in sickbay with the Doctor and saw the dead remains of the Caretaker move in response to sporocystian energy. Janeway has the crew search for the female caretake in the hopes she could aid them in their return home. Tuvok is quite worried about being at the Caretaker’s mercy again and asks for permission to work on a toxin that could be used against her.

Instead of finding the female Caretaker the crew finds Ocampa. A male Ocampa slams Janeway and the crew saying the Voyager is known as a ship of death. Janeway, naturally, asked Kes to act as an intermediately. The Ocampa responded to Kes. Kes was not aware that there were Ocampa outside of the home world. She was rather excited to meet new Ocampa. Tanis explains to Kes that she has a lot to learn about the Ocampa and herself. He also reveals that he is 14, which surprised Kes because the oldest known Ocampa was 9. If these were good people, one would assume that he would immediately offer to help her lengthen her own life. Tanis does immediately grow Kes’ plants. He enhances their life. Kes is amazed.

Tanis has dinner with Kes, Neelis, Tuvok, and Janeway. While at dinner Tanis offers Kes a chance to live with them and meet the Caretaker. Tanis also offers to aid Kes with her telepathic capabilities. The camera panned off and showed Tuvok make a very subtle, disgruntled, face. That is twice in this episode Tuvok has shown emotion. He must be getting a little soft working with all of those emotional humans. Tanis helped Kes move objects with her mind and use the fire in her mind to heat water. While showing Tuvok Kes is not able to stop using her fire and burns Tuvok’s face. For a moment, I thought it was a dream sequence of some type, but nope. Poor Tuvok, and when he wakes up he merely shrugs it off and tells Kes that she needs to keep training with him in order to control her powers. Tuvok tells Kes that he would regret not continuing as her instructor. Isn’t regret an emotion?

Tanis meets with Kes in her garden area, and burns all of her plants. I would think that Kes would have been extremely angry. It kind of scares me that her response was, “amazing”. I like it that the Caretaker took the form of a little girl; very innocent. The writers must have recently watched, Carrie, I am feeling a lot of fire-creepy-angry things going on. Tanis should not have messed with Neelix. Kes is extremely protective of him. It is a good thing that Tuvok insisted on making the toxin to control the Caretaker. She was extremely angry and blamed Janeway for killing her mate. Janeway showed Suspiria mercy and in return Suspiria left them alive.

Favorite part: The Doctor: “Vulcans make the worst patients”! This was a very solid episode; probably my favorite in the series so far!

Least favorite part: Tanis never shared the secret of lengthening her life with Kes.
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Old June 19 2012, 10:11 PM   #170
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

I don't see that "Genetic inheritance" means "not Human."

What if it was correcting a flaw in their genes that would make the susceptible to a disease? Would that make them not Human?
That's not even close to the case here.
The ep. shows and states that the Native American's were mentally challenged but because they respected nature, the aliens "blessed" them with average intelligence. That's a very racist picture they paint because it's calling Native American's savages and incapable of evolving mentally as well as every other race and culture on Earth.
I have to disagree with that interpretation.

The ep seems to discuss early Cro-Magnon man on the eastern hemisphere of the planet that have yet to develop a culture, not a mentally deficient race. Think many thousands of years ago, like when the reimagined Battlestar Galactica first landed on "our" earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

ALIEN: 43,000 years ago, on our first visit to your world, we met a small group of nomadic hunters. They had no spoken language, no culture, except the use of fire and stone weapons. But they did have a respect for the land and for other living creatures that impressed us deeply. We decided to give them an inheritance, a genetic bonding so they might thrive and protect your world. On subsequent visits, we found that our genetic gift brought about a spirit of curiosity and adventure. It impelled them to migrate away from the cold climate to a new, unpeopled land. It took them almost a thousand generations to cross your planet. Hundreds of thousands of them flourished in their new land. Their civilization had a profound influence on others of your species. But then, new people came with weapons and disease. The Inheritors who survived scattered. Many sought refuge in other societies. Twelve generations ago, when we returned, we found no sign of their existence.
Native American's are not one unified culture but rather several diversified ones and not all respected or protected nature. Not to mention the fact that several tribes and desendants of those tribes still exist in Central & South America as well as right here in the USA.
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Old June 20 2012, 09:48 PM   #171
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
Cold Fire

I like it that Tuvok is mentoring Kes. When Kes tells Tuvok that she is hearing Neelix’s thoughts he kind of cringes; I don’t know why but that made me laugh! I know people tend not to like Neelix, but he cracks me up. He is so aloof, but he is also incredibly well-informed and helpful to the crew! After her studies Kes was in sickbay with the Doctor and saw the dead remains of the Caretaker move in response to sporocystian energy. Janeway has the crew search for the female caretake in the hopes she could aid them in their return home. Tuvok is quite worried about being at the Caretaker’s mercy again and asks for permission to work on a toxin that could be used against her.

Instead of finding the female Caretaker the crew finds Ocampa. A male Ocampa slams Janeway and the crew saying the Voyager is known as a ship of death. Janeway, naturally, asked Kes to act as an intermediately. The Ocampa responded to Kes. Kes was not aware that there were Ocampa outside of the home world. She was rather excited to meet new Ocampa. Tanis explains to Kes that she has a lot to learn about the Ocampa and herself. He also reveals that he is 14, which surprised Kes because the oldest known Ocampa was 9. If these were good people, one would assume that he would immediately offer to help her lengthen her own life. Tanis does immediately grow Kes’ plants. He enhances their life. Kes is amazed.

Tanis has dinner with Kes, Neelis, Tuvok, and Janeway. While at dinner Tanis offers Kes a chance to live with them and meet the Caretaker. Tanis also offers to aid Kes with her telepathic capabilities. The camera panned off and showed Tuvok make a very subtle, disgruntled, face. That is twice in this episode Tuvok has shown emotion. He must be getting a little soft working with all of those emotional humans. Tanis helped Kes move objects with her mind and use the fire in her mind to heat water. While showing Tuvok Kes is not able to stop using her fire and burns Tuvok’s face. For a moment, I thought it was a dream sequence of some type, but nope. Poor Tuvok, and when he wakes up he merely shrugs it off and tells Kes that she needs to keep training with him in order to control her powers. Tuvok tells Kes that he would regret not continuing as her instructor. Isn’t regret an emotion?

Tanis meets with Kes in her garden area, and burns all of her plants. I would think that Kes would have been extremely angry. It kind of scares me that her response was, “amazing”. I like it that the Caretaker took the form of a little girl; very innocent. The writers must have recently watched, Carrie, I am feeling a lot of fire-creepy-angry things going on. Tanis should not have messed with Neelix. Kes is extremely protective of him. It is a good thing that Tuvok insisted on making the toxin to control the Caretaker. She was extremely angry and blamed Janeway for killing her mate. Janeway showed Suspiria mercy and in return Suspiria left them alive.

Favorite part: The Doctor: “Vulcans make the worst patients”! This was a very solid episode; probably my favorite in the series so far!

Least favorite part: Tanis never shared the secret of lengthening her life with Kes.
This is my favorite Voyager episode! Very exciting and somewhat spooky with Kes as the main character.

As for Kes's lifespan, I agree with your statement but it was at least stated that it was possible to prolong it which is most interesting.

The sad thing is that the episode was never followed up with a final encounter with Suspiria. It would also have been interesting to see how the Ocampa on the array lived and how they were. Still a great episode.
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Old June 21 2012, 12:27 AM   #172
teya
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

exodus wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
That's not even close to the case here.
The ep. shows and states that the Native American's were mentally challenged but because they respected nature, the aliens "blessed" them with average intelligence. That's a very racist picture they paint because it's calling Native American's savages and incapable of evolving mentally as well as every other race and culture on Earth.
I have to disagree with that interpretation.

The ep seems to discuss early Cro-Magnon man on the eastern hemisphere of the planet that have yet to develop a culture, not a mentally deficient race. Think many thousands of years ago, like when the reimagined Battlestar Galactica first landed on "our" earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

ALIEN: 43,000 years ago, on our first visit to your world, we met a small group of nomadic hunters. They had no spoken language, no culture, except the use of fire and stone weapons. But they did have a respect for the land and for other living creatures that impressed us deeply. We decided to give them an inheritance, a genetic bonding so they might thrive and protect your world. On subsequent visits, we found that our genetic gift brought about a spirit of curiosity and adventure. It impelled them to migrate away from the cold climate to a new, unpeopled land. It took them almost a thousand generations to cross your planet. Hundreds of thousands of them flourished in their new land. Their civilization had a profound influence on others of your species. But then, new people came with weapons and disease. The Inheritors who survived scattered. Many sought refuge in other societies. Twelve generations ago, when we returned, we found no sign of their existence.
Native American's are not one unified culture but rather several diversified ones and not all respected or protected nature. Not to mention the fact that several tribes and desendants of those tribes still exist in Central & South America as well as right here in the USA.
Honestly, it's this line that igs me the most:

On subsequent visits, we found that our genetic gift brought about a spirit of curiosity and adventure.

While other humans have an innate sense of curiosity & adventure, those Indians were perfectly content to park themselves in the Arctic & never progress. They needed that genetic gift to get their asses in gear.

The Sky Spirits (and Jeri Taylor) can kiss my indigenous ass.
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Old June 21 2012, 01:47 AM   #173
exodus
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
Cold Fire

I like it that Tuvok is mentoring Kes. When Kes tells Tuvok that she is hearing Neelix’s thoughts he kind of cringes; I don’t know why but that made me laugh! I know people tend not to like Neelix, but he cracks me up. He is so aloof, but he is also incredibly well-informed and helpful to the crew! After her studies Kes was in sickbay with the Doctor and saw the dead remains of the Caretaker move in response to sporocystian energy. Janeway has the crew search for the female caretake in the hopes she could aid them in their return home. Tuvok is quite worried about being at the Caretaker’s mercy again and asks for permission to work on a toxin that could be used against her.

Instead of finding the female Caretaker the crew finds Ocampa. A male Ocampa slams Janeway and the crew saying the Voyager is known as a ship of death. Janeway, naturally, asked Kes to act as an intermediately. The Ocampa responded to Kes. Kes was not aware that there were Ocampa outside of the home world. She was rather excited to meet new Ocampa. Tanis explains to Kes that she has a lot to learn about the Ocampa and herself. He also reveals that he is 14, which surprised Kes because the oldest known Ocampa was 9. If these were good people, one would assume that he would immediately offer to help her lengthen her own life. Tanis does immediately grow Kes’ plants. He enhances their life. Kes is amazed.

Tanis has dinner with Kes, Neelis, Tuvok, and Janeway. While at dinner Tanis offers Kes a chance to live with them and meet the Caretaker. Tanis also offers to aid Kes with her telepathic capabilities. The camera panned off and showed Tuvok make a very subtle, disgruntled, face. That is twice in this episode Tuvok has shown emotion. He must be getting a little soft working with all of those emotional humans. Tanis helped Kes move objects with her mind and use the fire in her mind to heat water. While showing Tuvok Kes is not able to stop using her fire and burns Tuvok’s face. For a moment, I thought it was a dream sequence of some type, but nope. Poor Tuvok, and when he wakes up he merely shrugs it off and tells Kes that she needs to keep training with him in order to control her powers. Tuvok tells Kes that he would regret not continuing as her instructor. Isn’t regret an emotion?

Tanis meets with Kes in her garden area, and burns all of her plants. I would think that Kes would have been extremely angry. It kind of scares me that her response was, “amazing”. I like it that the Caretaker took the form of a little girl; very innocent. The writers must have recently watched, Carrie, I am feeling a lot of fire-creepy-angry things going on. Tanis should not have messed with Neelix. Kes is extremely protective of him. It is a good thing that Tuvok insisted on making the toxin to control the Caretaker. She was extremely angry and blamed Janeway for killing her mate. Janeway showed Suspiria mercy and in return Suspiria left them alive.

Favorite part: The Doctor: “Vulcans make the worst patients”! This was a very solid episode; probably my favorite in the series so far!

Least favorite part: Tanis never shared the secret of lengthening her life with Kes.
Tanis doesn't burn the plants, Kes does.
She isn't angry about it because if you noticed, it gave her the equivalent of sexual release. Notice how she fell to the floor, sweaty and panting. Notice at the end of the ep. she tells Tuvok he powers bring out her dark side and she is frightened of the evil in herself because she is also thrilled by it. This is foreshadowing of how her abilities are dangerous.

I enjoy this ep. because we finally get to see a idea of Kes' full abilities while finally giving the character inner conflict. What I don't like is the ending with Kes saying she'll never explore her abilities further. I feel it writes the character into another dead end by ending any further exploration of this side too the character.
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Old June 23 2012, 07:24 AM   #174
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Tanis didn't burn the plants, Kes did. But Kes was under Tanis's influence when she did that. Otherwise she would never have burned the plants she loved.

When Tanis was gone, Kes's powers were back to normal. She could no longer boil tea in a cup or be a threat to anyone. In fact, we never saw anything of any dangerous powers from her (unless you don't count that utterly ridiculous episode "The Gift" which was written as a lousy excuse to get rid of the character).

And yes, she realized the danger and told Tuvok that she didn't want to explore her abilities further. A very wise decision which proved that she had learned from the experience.
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Old June 25 2012, 02:36 AM   #175
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Lynx, this is a First time watch thread, I believe we should avoid talking about anything of later episodes, unless spoiler-coded.
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Old June 25 2012, 02:19 PM   #176
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Lynx, this is a First time watch thread, I believe we should avoid talking about anything of later episodes, unless spoiler-coded.
I'm sorry. My mistake, just didn't think about that. Not to mention that I tried to edit the post when I saw your comment but couldn't. It's obviously too old for that.
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Old June 25 2012, 03:48 PM   #177
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Lynx wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Lynx, this is a First time watch thread, I believe we should avoid talking about anything of later episodes, unless spoiler-coded.
I'm sorry. My mistake, just didn't think about that. Not to mention that I tried to edit the post when I saw your comment but couldn't. It's obviously too old for that.
It's easy to do, fortunately, it's mostly a little thing. I frequently find myself saying too much in first time watch threads, and then having to reword or remove stuff
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Old June 25 2012, 05:18 PM   #178
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

exodus wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post
Cold Fire
Tanis doesn't burn the plants, Kes does.
She isn't angry about it because if you noticed, it gave her the equivalent of sexual release. Notice how she fell to the floor, sweaty and panting. Notice at the end of the ep. she tells Tuvok he powers bring out her dark side and she is frightened of the evil in herself because she is also thrilled by it. This is foreshadowing of how her abilities are dangerous.

I enjoy this ep. because we finally get to see a idea of Kes' full abilities while finally giving the character inner conflict. What I don't like is the ending with Kes saying she'll never explore her abilities further. I feel it writes the character into another dead end by ending any further exploration of this side too the character.
She says she will never explore her abilities further, yet she is excited at the opportunity to continue her studies with Tuvok. I was kind of hoping that she would eventually try to hone her abilities to help the crew. Her ability to enhance life could have been a saving grace for the ship's food supplies!
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Old June 25 2012, 05:20 PM   #179
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Thanks for keeping the spoilers in mind. I have done a fairly decent job in avoiding VOY talk with anyone. My husband let it slip that a borg eventually joins the crew, but other than that I am spoiler free!
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Old June 25 2012, 05:23 PM   #180
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Oh, and not VOY related, but I just watched Insurrection for the first time. Big fan!! It didn't really feel like a movie though, rather two extended episodes put together. I was kind of hoping that Picard's hair would start to grow back while he was on the planet! Oh, and I love Data! I'm so sad that I will be out of the country on July 23rd when they show Datalore in the movie theatres!!
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