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Old June 15 2012, 10:14 PM   #136
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Oh, I could have told 'em *that* would be busted - quicker, could be as accurate, but not powerful enough.

A horizontal swing of the arm (left to right or vice-versa) with the right flick of the wrist might well do it - you'd get about as much leverage as from overhand - but not underhand...
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Old June 16 2012, 03:48 PM   #137
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Yes, they mentioned they were inspired by the scene in the Magnificent 7.

Modern quick-draw artists: These guys are professional performers with dead-accurate custom guns who practice daily. It's not gonna be the same as two drunk idiots with well-used surplus civil war pistols that rattle when you shake 'em, trying to hit each other from 50 feet away while pissing themselves. .
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Old June 18 2012, 03:05 AM   #138
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

NM, DP

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Old June 18 2012, 03:09 AM   #139
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Hollywood gun myths: Nice to see a divergence from the usual two-myths-per-episode format, and to see more mini-myths. Although this had so many mini-myths that the result was kind of scattershot, pardon the expression. And guns aren't my favorite subject by a long, err, shot, though.

Shootout duration: Pretty straightforward -- it'd be over in seconds, and even reloading adds little time. Not much to say. Except that the slow motion shot of Kari firing that automatic weapon, and certain undulations resulting from the recoil, was rather captivating.

True Lies automatic weapon on stairs: Not surprising this didn't work. Nothing about that horrible movie made any sense anyway. And it stands to reason that weapons would be designed not to go off if bumped.

Nailgun: Interesting how accurate it was at range, given it's designed to work right up close, but how little penetration it had. I wonder, though, if they shouldn't have used a ballistics-gel target instead of wood.


Quick draw reaction time: This is so much like the kendo myth from last week. And they're making the same misinterpretation, assuming it means that reacting is faster than initiating. In this case, the movie situation where the bad guy draws first and the good guy gets the shot first, the idea isn't that reaction time is always faster; the idea is that the good guy is more skilled, has faster reflexes, and is a bigger badass than the villain. It's always cooler to win when you're at a disadvantage.

The other thing that bugs me is that I don't think the result that Kari had faster reaction time was valid, because she fired too early, while the gun was still pointing down at an angle. So that doesn't really count.

It's interesting to see K, G, & T do one part of a myth and Adam & Jamie do the other part (the face-to-face paintball shootout), but I'm unsure of what that does to the results, since it's not the same people doing the different parts of the test, so how do we know the difference wasn't between the people rather than the situations? Basic science: you change only the variable you're testing and keep everything else the same.


Weird bullets: It's surprising how inaccurate silver bullets are. That really dismantles the whole Lone Ranger scenario, where he shoots so accurately that he can always shoot guns out of people's hands without killing them. As for the engraving, I'm not sure if I'm surprised that it didn't throw off the accuracy, but I do find it surprising that the whole "bullet with your name on it" thing has been literally depicted in the movies. I always took it for a metaphor.


Shooting a moving target: Again, no real surprises here -- running from a hail of bullets isn't as effective as the movies say. At least, all else being equal. There's a factor that doesn't really come into play in a paintball test, and that's the psychological element. I've read that soldiers in combat often shoot to miss, that they can't really bring themselves to shoot to kill and either deliberately or unconsciously avert their aim. Who's to say henchmen wouldn't have similar reluctance? (Although that wouldn't explain how the hero is able to mow them down easily. It would require the hero to be more of a sociopath than the villains.)

I think that's all of it, aside from the recaps of stuff from old episodes. (I don't think that "shooting at zombies" clip they showed ever made it into a US episode.)
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Old June 18 2012, 03:21 AM   #140
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

These people have WAY too much fun at work!

Just a comment on the "is the reaction faster than drawing first" bit - Kari fired her reaction shot into the ground about 20 feet in front of her, and Tori's gun went off about 5-10 degrees into the air.
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Old June 18 2012, 03:29 AM   #141
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Oh yeah, silver bullets - some of the gun magazines tested this one in the past. The thing is, silver shrinks when it cools (as Kari mentioned). If you cast the bullet in a standard mold, that means you get a bullet that's undersized for the bore of the gun. That means gas escapes around the bullet, the bullet doesn't engage the rifling as deeply, and the bullet may even wobble as it flies. None of these things are good for accuracy.

Come to think of it, sliver is harder than lead and/or copper (yes/no?), in which case engaging the rifling in the barrel may cause more drag on the bullet than normal.
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Old June 18 2012, 03:54 AM   #142
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

^So could you compensate by using a bigger mold to cast the silver bullets?
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Old June 18 2012, 11:44 AM   #143
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Quick draw reaction time: This is so much like the kendo myth from last week. And they're making the same misinterpretation, assuming it means that reacting is faster than initiating. In this case, the movie situation where the bad guy draws first and the good guy gets the shot first, the idea isn't that reaction time is always faster; the idea is that the good guy is more skilled, has faster reflexes, and is a bigger badass than the villain. It's always cooler to win when you're at a disadvantage.
Well, to be fair the "reality" of what's happening in the movie (good over evil) is different than the implication of what's happening. Pretty much all of the Hollywood myths they test can be waved away with saying, "You missed the point, the good guy's stunts ALWAYS work!"

Anyway I also noticed in the slow-mos of Kari's "faster reaction time" that it looks like she shoots the gun before it was fully pointed forward, I think a degree of accuracy needed to be put into this on if "getting the shot off first" would have even worked to take down the other guy.

The discrepancy between the Junior team's attempts working and Jamie/Adam's "real word" testing could be chalked up to the difference between reacting to a light simply coming on and reacting to a movement (which may be too subtle to notice quickly enough.)

I really don't think the "running out of bullets" thing needed to be tested. Not even in a "to prove the point to people" sort of way. I'd hope most people are smart enough to realize that guns don't come with a God Mode/Unlimited Ammo Cheat.
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Old June 18 2012, 12:32 PM   #144
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Christopher wrote: View Post
True Lies automatic weapon on stairs: Not surprising this didn't work. Nothing about that horrible movie made any sense anyway. And it stands to reason that weapons would be designed not to go off if bumped.
They should have tried that with an early model British Army issue SA-80 from the late 80s/early 90s - the L85A1 - which absolutely would go off if dropped on its butt-plate, even with the safety on! (Prompting several expensive recalls and redesigns)

It couldn't have kept firing as went, like in True Lies, though - for extra shits and giggles it was very prone to jamming when set on auto, and the magazine release stuck out to catch on clothes, so that the clip would drop out at inconvenient moments. The whole thing was a Johnny English scene waiting to happen...
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Old June 18 2012, 01:04 PM   #145
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Christopher wrote: View Post
^So could you compensate by using a bigger mold to cast the silver bullets?
Yup. You'd only have to calculate the shrinkage and create a mold the correct amount larger. That only leaves the question about how hard the silver is in terms of fitting into the barrel. Lead (and copper jackets) are soft enough that the bullet squeezes itself into the rifling and seals the barrel, so all the expanding gas goes into pushing it. If a bullet is too hard with no give, it could jam in the barrel and cause the barrel to rupture.
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Old June 18 2012, 01:09 PM   #146
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Well, to be fair the "reality" of what's happening in the movie (good over evil) is different than the implication of what's happening. Pretty much all of the Hollywood myths they test can be waved away with saying, "You missed the point, the good guy's stunts ALWAYS work!"
No, that's not what I'm saying. It's not about "stunts" and luck going the hero's way; the idea is that the hero wins because he's more skilled than the competition, because he's the best there is. It's not meant to be a fight between two people of equal skill levels. The idea is that the hero earns the victory by being faster, more accurate, better-trained.


Anyway I also noticed in the slow-mos of Kari's "faster reaction time" that it looks like she shoots the gun before it was fully pointed forward, I think a degree of accuracy needed to be put into this on if "getting the shot off first" would have even worked to take down the other guy.
It's also very strange to me that they seemed to base it on only a single trial per team member. It should've been an average of multiple trials.


The discrepancy between the Junior team's attempts working and Jamie/Adam's "real word" testing could be chalked up to the difference between reacting to a light simply coming on and reacting to a movement (which may be too subtle to notice quickly enough.)
That's not the point. The point is that we can't know whether that's the case or not because the two parts of the experiment were tested by different people. Science isn't about guessing the reasons for things, it's about finding out for sure. If two experiments differ in two simultaneous ways, there's no way to know which of those differences was responsible for the difference in the results, so it's a crappy experimental design. You're supposed to isolate each variable, change only one thing at a time, so that you know for sure that that's the reason for the difference. It could be that the difference in results was due to the difference in situations, but there's no proof of that because the two situations were tested by different groups of people, and the difference could've been in the people instead. This is simply not how you do science. The Mythbusters' standards have really gone to pot.


Another thing that bugged me was the "shooting two guns" retest (that's the one I forgot about before) -- when they shot at two separate targets, they calculated their accuracy just by adding up the total score of both targets. They should've divided that result by two to get the average accuracy per target.
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Old June 18 2012, 03:33 PM   #147
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

I was just talking with my cubile neighbor who owns a rather extensive gun collection and I asked him about the "True Lies" situation. I noticed as presented, it appeared they ran a mere two tests, dropping the gun down the stairs. They may have done more, but as edited for the final broadcast, it looks like they did it only twice. Two drops and "Busted!" Sorry, that's just not enough to make the call. They should have done that at least ten times, maybe more.

Anyway, back to my co-worker. The has a "Mac-10" I believe he called it and he claims they are quite prone to a condition called "slam firing" and it has even happened to him. He popped the magazine into his gun one time and the accursed thing emptied all the rounds, bullets whizzing mere inches from his ear! Now, I've known this co-worker for 20 years and I have no reason to doubt his honesty. He's quite serious about his weapons. If he says a certain weapon is prone to certain conditions (such as "slam firing"), I believe him. On the other hand, you guys don't know me from Adam, so I won't blame you if you think I am making up a fish tale.

Sincerely,

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Old June 18 2012, 04:26 PM   #148
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Redfern wrote: View Post
Anyway, back to my co-worker. The has a "Mac-10" I believe he called it and he claims they are quite prone to a condition called "slam firing" and it has even happened to him. He popped the magazine into his gun one time and the accursed thing emptied all the rounds, bullets whizzing mere inches from his ear! Now, I've known this co-worker for 20 years and I have no reason to doubt his honesty. He's quite serious about his weapons. If he says a certain weapon is prone to certain conditions (such as "slam firing"), I believe him. On the other hand, you guys don't know me from Adam, so I won't blame you if you think I am making up a fish tale.

Sincerely,

Bill
The full-auto MAc-10 fires from an open bolt, which makes it vulnerable to slam firing - but that's an issue to do with the way the firing mechanism and magazine are set up, so it might go off when reloading, or burst-fire when trying to fire single-shot. It's *not* the same as going off when dropped - that's not what "slam-firing" means.
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Old June 18 2012, 04:33 PM   #149
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

But I suppose if dropping it causes it to go off once by tripping the sear, it could then slam-fire the rest of the mag as it bounces down the stairs...
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Old June 18 2012, 05:11 PM   #150
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Re: Heads up! MYTHBUSTERS season premiere tonight at 9 Eastern!

Sort of my thinking, the gun in True Lies simply could have a design flaw, been broken or some other oddity to cause it to fire down the steps. Another aspect of this to test would have been to see if the gun -assuming it would fire as it tumbled down the stairs- would have only fired away from the hero.
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