Revisiting the films...

[Joker]

Warped9 wrote:

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The exterior ship shits were pretty good.

[Warped9]

Joker wrote:

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Fixed.

[Warped9]

Star Trek: First Contact (1996) **

The Borg travel back into Earth’s history to assimilate humanity before it can develop star flight.

Uh, could someone turn up the lights, please? It’s getting rather dark in here. Granted the actual look of the space shots are nice I have to say that whatever issues I might have had with the design of the E-D I liked it much better than the fanboy wet dream known as the new E-E. It strikes me as overdone and with disturbing Voyager echoes to it. Also I don’t care for the new dark look of the black and grey uniforms with only a touch of colour---it looks wrong. Just as the uniforms of TWO-TUC looked like belonged in something other than Star Trek and the Starfleet that had been established so do these new designs for FC.

The Enterprise is way out on the Romulan border and yet they can make it back to Earth in practically no time to engage the Borg. Hookay…

Zefram Cochrane is retconned into a drunken lout. Data can now switch off his emotion chip when previously it had become a permanent functioning part of his system. The Borg collective now have a queen. Previous time travel stories had the crews doing everything they could to cover their tracks in the past, but here they go out of their way to reveal themselves. And the hero worship is laid on rather thick---no wonder Cochrane gets creeped out. The ending is hilarious. They’re supposed to be making a discreet exit, but they beam out in plain view of anyone watching.

This film has a more graphic look than the TV series given greater production resources particularly in regards to the Borg. The film also has one redeeming quality over the previous film: it has a more straightforward story with less extraneous stuff thrown into it.

This is marginally better than GEN simply because it feels more coherent and better paced. But the script is also full of silly dialogue the characters are forced to spout. There are periodic okay moments, but they’re not plentiful enough. The EVA walk on the hull of the ship is kinda nice. This really is the TNG attempt to create their own version of TWOK. But in a head-to-head comparison I think TWOK is still a distinctly better effort overall even given what issues I have with that film.

GEN contributed greatly to my souring on contemporary Trek in general and the TNG film franchise in particular. FC is slightly better than GEN, but not nearly enough to win me over.

[Joker]

Warped9 wrote:

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STAR TREK: 1964-1991

Did I miss something? I thought the world ended in 1979?

[Warped9]

Joker wrote:

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Did I miss something? I thought the world ended in 1979?

In science fiction you can find new life.

[BillJ]

Really dislike First Contact for what it did to the Borg. Turning them into second-rate, B-movie zombies.

[sonak]

First Contact is up there with TWOK as the best of the Trek films. Much like TWOK it gets almost everything right-good humor, good story, good use of all the regular characters(the only Next Gen movie to do that), good action, the effects still look first rate today. The music is awesome, too.

The only downside is the way it changed the Borg, but Alice Krige is good enough in the movie to overlook it.


With GEN and FC, I thought the Next Gen movies were off to a great start.


Then came INS...

[Lord Garth]

This is the movie where we seriously disagree. It had to happen some time. Right?

Personally, I think FC is the only TNG movie that's any good.

Warped9 wrote:

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It strikes me as overdone and with disturbing Voyager echoes to it.

That's probably just the overall direction Starfleet design was heading in at the time.

Data can now switch off his emotion chip when previously it had become a permanent functioning part of his system.

Given how much I couldn't stand the emotion chip, that's one change I'm not going to complain about.

The Borg collective now have a queen.

This never bothered me since the Borg are supposed to be like bees.

Previous time travel stories had the crews doing everything they could to cover their tracks in the past, but here they go out of their way to reveal themselves. And the hero worship is laid on rather thick---no wonder Cochrane gets creeped out. The ending is hilarious. They’re supposed to be making a discreet exit, but they beam out in plain view of anyone watching.

I'm with you on these.

it has a more straightforward story with less extraneous stuff thrown into it.

Yup.

The EVA walk on the hull of the ship is kinda nice.

That's one of my favorite parts of the film.

This really is the TNG attempt to create their own version of TWOK.

I'd call it an inversion since it's the protagonist who was vengeful. Picard snapping in the ready room was perfect. Patrick Stewart really sold me on the scene. This was Picard as we've never seen him before because his inner demons had driven him like never before.

Picard's confrontation with Worf over destroying the ship was a classic scene.

I'm glad Lily called bullshit on the idea that humanity in the 24th Century was supposedly more evolved. This movie, and the later seasons of DS9, proved it was bullshit. I'm a little surprised she'd even envied Picard for the world he was going to, given what (little) she'd seen of it.

The only problem here was with Picard pulling a Rambo in the holodeck. That couldn't have been any more of a rip-off of The First Blood: Rambo II. Though I liked the Dixon Hill program.

But in a head-to-head comparison I think TWOK is still a distinctly better effort overall

I ultimately agree that TWOK is the better film but I wouldn't put as much distance between them.

GEN contributed greatly to my souring on contemporary Trek in general and the TNG film franchise in particular.

FC made me think the TNG movies would great despite the rocky start with GEN. I was proven wrong with the next two installments.

Another note: This movie had one of the best sountracks. It's one of my top three. Musically, I rate it next to TMP and above TUC.

[Mr_Homn]

Really enjoyed the reviews, Warped9. Thanks for putting in the time and effort. I wouldn't have the patience to flesh out my feelings/opinions of these movies, especially considering their overall mediocrity.

I agree with the majority of what you said. I wouldn't put TMP at the top, although I agree with most of your points. The cons you listed hurt it more for me than it does for you, apparently. I also sort of resent it. We never would have gotten the Meyer crap or the rest of the crap if it had delivered. It let us down and its failure paved the way for much of the stupidity to take its place. I can't blame that all on this movie, of course, but I can't help but imagine how much better the Trek universe would be today if TMP was planned out with more - I don't know - Care? Thought? Time?... In that way, TMP's flaws upset me more than the subsequent movies.

Also, I definitely think TFF is a better movie than TUC. Actually, I should probably say it's a better Star Trek movie. From your review, it sounded like you think that way too, although your ratings say otherwise.

I completely share your thoughts and overall sentiment on Star Trek '09, for obvious (to you and I at least) reasons.

In my opinion, the Star Trek film "experiment" as a whole has been a failure. None of the Star Trek movies ever matched TOS or TNG at their best. They could have been SO much better. Of course if you look at it from a purely financial standpoint, it's been a success for the most part, but that means little to me. The TNG movies especially were painfully disappointing. Patrick Stewart and company *really* deserved better. At least when you combine the Original 6 movies, there's about 2 or 3 movies worth of good stuff spread out in there. There's *maybe* an episode's worth of good stuff in the TNG movies... Ugh.



I sound like I hate these movies, but I just find them very disappointing, compared to what they should have been. Okay, I DO hate a few of them. But I do still get enjoyment out of watching some of them as well. Quite a bit of enjoyment for a few of them. They are guilty pleasures for the most part, but they can be a lot of fun in the right mindset.

But, in the end, I would happily throw them all away for one more *good* season of TOS or TNG.

[Warped9]

If TMP had delivered then things would have been different afterward. But there are reasons the film came out as it did and it seems no one would acknowledge what those were and accept responsibility. I suppose it wasn't unexpected TPTB reacted as they did by wanting to jettison everything but the cast, the sets and the filming miniature.

TMP echoed "The Cage" in some respects because it proved that Trek on film could work and make money, but it wasn't exactly what everyone had expected. All manner of reasons have been given, but if the film hadn't been saddled with the costs of the aborted Phase II production then the financial aspect looks a lot better because no one can say TMP didn't make money. It ended up being one of the better performing films.

Leading up to TMP no one could decide what kind of film they wanted yet everyone seemed to know what they didn't want. It's almost like "they wanted it all" and couldn't figure out how to get it. Hence the pressure to tell a "big" story. Although you can't blame the fans there was also a heightened expectation and with every fan possible hoping for something different from the next fan.

I applaud them for wanting to do something different from Star Wars. It is more in keeping with TOS' somewhat more "cerebral" or thoughtful approach overall.

But the story they went with simply wasn't complete with all the kinks worked out before they switched gears and tried to rush out a feature film based on it.

[SchwEnt]

^^^ If Star Wars was indeed the impetus for the studio to make ST into a feature film, we can be very glad that TPTB didn't force it into a ripoff copycat. They could have imagined all the things they thought made SW popular (kewl lazer battles, funny robots, etc) and stuck them into their Star Trek movie, just to capitalize.

There were many SW ripoffs at the time, trying to ride the bandwagon. Most failed terribly. It could have been so, so horrible for Star Trek.

And then I think about Star Trek 09...

[Warped9]

While we scrutinize the Trek films even after so many years you gotta wonder what the Enterprise crew watch for entertainment.



McCoy: "Dammit, Jim! There's nothing worth watching this evening. Nothing but reruns."

Kirk: "Shut up, Bones, I haven't had time to see a lot of these."


And the series we never saw...

[Maurice]

Warped9 wrote:

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If TMP had delivered then things would have been different afterward. But there are reasons the film came out as it did and it seems no one would acknowledge what those were and accept responsibility.

I don't know about that. Everyone admits it was a mistake to start with an unfinished script. The critical error was block-booking the film into theaters which set an unalterable end-date, which effectively forced them to start before the script was ready. The Robert Abel problem just exacerbated the situation.

Warped9 wrote:

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I suppose it wasn't unexpected TPTB reacted as they did by wanting to jettison everything but the cast, the sets and the filming miniature.

Let's put a name on TPTB: Nick Meyer. In his memoir he basically said he decided to zig where TMP zagged:

...served to validate my own instincts to push back against the seriousness of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Similarly, I rebelled against the look of Wise's film...If I'd had the budget, I world have started from scratch and the result would have looked more like the spaceship freighter seen in Alien.

Nicholas Meyer, The View From the Bridge. p.93–94

[Warped9]

Maurice wrote:

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Speaks volumes to me about someone who didn't understand shit about TOS and its universe. Says Robert Wise grasped it better than Meyer did.

[EliyahuQeoni]

Warped9 wrote:

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Speaks volumes to me about someone who didn't understand shit about TOS and its universe. Says Robert Wise grasped it better than Meyer did.

I would have to agree. While I generally enjoy Meyer's Trek films, the above quote makes me glad he didn't have the budget he wanted...