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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Forgotten History.
Outstanding 56 51.38%
Above Average 39 35.78%
Average 9 8.26%
Below Average 3 2.75%
Poor 2 1.83%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 14 2012, 05:13 PM   #331
RPJOB
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Except of course, it renders Nimoy's cameo and the entire time travel aspect of the movie pointless.
Except Nimoy has already played a Spock from an alternate reality, the Mirror Universe. If he can be a Spock from one universe, why not another? And the time travel is just a way to say "everything you know is wrong". It's pushing a reset button while not overwriting what's gone before. (or not. For all we know the old universe was overwritten. We didn't see anything of it after Spock and Nero went through the black hole.)
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Old June 14 2012, 05:17 PM   #332
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Except of course, it renders Nimoy's cameo and the entire time travel aspect of the movie pointless.
Except Nimoy has already played a Spock from an alternate reality, the Mirror Universe. If he can be a Spock from one universe, why not another?
That's a clown question, bro.
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Old June 14 2012, 05:22 PM   #333
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
RPJOB wrote: View Post
There's nothing in the movie that says it has to be "our" Old Spock.
The fact that he says "I have been, and always shall be, your friend" is pretty telling. Would a Spock from an alternate reality have chosen his words the exact same way?

Besides, I'm speaking metatextually. The reason the filmmakers cast Leonard Nimoy -- coaxed him out of retirement, even -- and built the story around Spock's return from the 24th century was to make this story a legitimate continuation of the Star Trek that had come before rather than a completely disconnected version. If that hadn't been their intention, Nimoy's Ambassador Spock would not have been in the movie at all.
In the Mirror Universe McCoy's work table had the exact same acid stain as the one in the prime universe. That seems much more unlikely than someone using a particular turn of phrase. and yet there it is.

An actor "un-retiring" is hardly unprecedented and Nimoy has done it before and since. Give him a big enough part and a big enough payment and you could convince any number of retired actors to put on the tights one more time.

The writers intent may have been that it was "our" Spock that we were seeing. In fact, I'm confident that you could say that with certainty. However, just like TATV being a holodeck program gave you an out for undoing Trip's death, the fact that the movie establishes itself as an alternate universe allows for the interpretation that this is a Spock from a universe very similar to but probably different in some ways, to the one we saw on TOS, TNG, etc. Nothing in the movie itself prevents that interpretation, writers intent being worth nothing more than their opinion. If it's not on the screen, it doesn't count.
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Old June 14 2012, 05:39 PM   #334
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Except of course, it renders Nimoy's cameo and the entire time travel aspect of the movie pointless.
Except Nimoy has already played a Spock from an alternate reality, the Mirror Universe. If he can be a Spock from one universe, why not another?
Common sense, writers' (and actor) intent, etc, etc.

Really, I could pick any episode or movie I wanted to discount from the main continuity and use the exact same argument to try and justify it.
And the time travel is just a way to say "everything you know is wrong". It's pushing a reset button while not overwriting what's gone before. (or not. For all we know the old universe was overwritten. We didn't see anything of it after Spock and Nero went through the black hole.)
Hence the movie being a reboot of Trek, albeit an in-universe one. Similarly to how the pilot episode of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles undid Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines.

"Countdown" and "The Needs of the Many" show the Prime universe (or at least some branch of it) continuing on after the events of 2387. The DTI novels detail the technicalities of how and why that can be.
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Old June 14 2012, 05:42 PM   #335
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
The writers intent may have been that it was "our" Spock that we were seeing. In fact, I'm confident that you could say that with certainty. However, just like TATV being a holodeck program gave you an out for undoing Trip's death, the fact that the movie establishes itself as an alternate universe allows for the interpretation that this is a Spock from a universe very similar to but probably different in some ways, to the one we saw on TOS, TNG, etc.
Yes, it allows for that interpretation, but I don't find it a desirable or useful interpretation, and I can't believe any licensed tie-in would be based on it. And it's just the same old reaction from fans who are intolerant of the new and different, just like they were with TNG and ENT in years past. Those attitudes always exist, but they never win out in the long run. Eventually the new interpretation gets accepted as part of the whole, except by a tiny minority of purists. That's always been the pattern in the past, and I see no reason to expect anything different this time. The original continuity remains enduringly popular and the Abrams continuity is hugely popular, so there's no reason to think that any future Trek creators would want to avoid drawing on one or the other.
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Old June 14 2012, 05:48 PM   #336
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The writers intent may have been that it
was "our" Spock that we were seeing. In
fact, I'm confident that you could say that
with certainty. However, just like TATV
being a holodeck program gave you an out
for undoing Trip's death, the fact that the
movie establishes itself as an alternate
universe allows for the interpretation that
this is a Spock from a universe very similar
to but probably different in some ways, to
the one we saw on TOS, TNG, etc. Nothing
in the movie itself prevents that
interpretation, writers intent being worth
nothing more than their opinion. If it's not
on the screen, it doesn't count.
The difference being that TATV was the end of TV Trek at the time it was produced. No more was forthcoming, nor were any movies scheduled after the flop of Nemesis. TPTB thus gave writers a lot more leeway to reinterpret things and do what they wanted, since there was no more risk of conflicting with future canon.

STXI was a successful movie, with a sequel on the way, and TPTB are VERY interested in how their property is handled (see: nuTrek novels being cancelled, only projects with direct Bad Robot oversight being allowed set in the new timeline) and so don't want tie-in writers ignoring the movie's intent.
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Old June 14 2012, 05:55 PM   #337
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'd hardly consider myself a purist. I accept it all. Books, comics and others included. Star Trek is not a universe, it's a multiverse and we've known this since Mirror Mirror. The parts that contradict? They're from universe #185,290 and 59,227. No biggie. If someone wants to see Old Spock as the one from the DC comics instead of TOS, more power to them.

If someone came up with a compelling story that relied upon Old Spock being a different one that "our" Spock and if the editor and CBS agreed then we'd get that story. That's a big if but by no means one that's impossible.

Once Abrams is done with his movies we'll get another movie series or perhaps a TV series or two, based on someone else's vision of what Trek is. Contrary to some of the time travel stories, the future is not set in stone. Neither is the past. The universe exists in whatever form the current (or future) owners of the franchise say it does.

Desirable? Irrelevant as it's based on what's going to make the most money.

Useful? Who's to say what one person or the other finds useful. You may not find it useful but someone down the line could turn the idea that it's a different Old Spock into the best Star Trek we've ever seen. Who knows?
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Old June 15 2012, 08:43 AM   #338
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Oh, I like ships fine. I just like them better when they aren't killing people.
Ships don't kill people. People kill people.

That and sentient ships.
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Old June 15 2012, 11:13 AM   #339
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Relayer1 wrote: View Post
So, Spock Prime and Data Prime are in the JJverse ! Does Spock know about Data's head ? If I recall correctly Picard would have known about this, and he melded with Spock...
Oooooo! Ooooooo! We should start a rumor that Brent Spiner is appearing in the next movie!
Who says it's just a rumour ?
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Old June 15 2012, 02:51 PM   #340
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^Did you see those leaked pictures of brent Spiner wearing a green body suit and Data face paint with Chris Pine on the set of Star Trek?
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Old June 15 2012, 04:24 PM   #341
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
^Did you see those leaked pictures of brent Spiner wearing a green body suit and Data face paint with Chris Pine on the set of Star Trek?
I hear they're top secret and we can't mention them.

Anyway, we're derailing this thread...
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Old June 15 2012, 04:57 PM   #342
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Back OT, I forgot to mention this before: The cover is excellent. Pictures online do not do it justice.
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Old June 15 2012, 07:30 PM   #343
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

You could interpret Leonard Nimoy's character in ST09 as being from a different timeline than the Prime Timeline. If you just really can't stand the idea that ST09's timeline branches off from the regular timeline.

But that's not the creator's intent, and it's not the interpretation the licensed tie-ins are going to use. The tie-ins are going to obey the instructions on what is canonical from the people who run canonical Star Trek -- which is, right now, J.J. Abrams and company.

ETA:

As far as the Alternate Timeline Federation developing its own DTI...

I wouldn't be surprised if the events of ST09 lead to the establishment of their own DTI. There probably wouldn't be one yet as of 2258 -- no one knew that there was a temporal incursion in 2233 when the Narada destroyed the starship Kelvin until Kirk encountered Spock Prime in 2258 and Spock Prime revealed the Narada's future origins.

But.... Given that the events of 2258 involve the most devastating attack the Federation has yet suffered in the destruction of Vulcan, the destruction of all Federation starships and starbases in Vulcan orbit, the attack on Starfleet Headquarters on Earth, and the deaths of 6,000,000 Federates, I wouldn't be surprised if the institutional culture, if the ethos, of the Alternate Timeline's Federation DTI equivalent ends up being a great deal more militant, more controlling, of temporal events. That doesn't HAVE to be the case, but obviously the events leading to the discovery of time travel in ST09 were a great deal more traumatic for the Federation than the events leading to the discovery of time travel seen in TOS and Forgotten History.
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Old June 15 2012, 09:01 PM   #344
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I can't believed I forgot to leave my thoughts on this book!

Well, I must say, Christopher, you have effectively prequelized AND sequelized Watching The Clock. I loved the idea of traveling back to the TMP era, and the discussions of the DTI's origins.

Your emphasis on the slingshot maneuver and what actually happens to you was great, I felt like I was actually experiencing it.
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Old June 16 2012, 12:29 AM   #345
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Loved forgotten history best star trek book to date. We vastly approaching 2387 when will we see data's return? And will the dti show themselves to fix nero's fiasco?
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