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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Forgotten History.
Outstanding 55 51.40%
Above Average 38 35.51%
Average 9 8.41%
Below Average 3 2.80%
Poor 2 1.87%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 13 2012, 11:22 PM   #316
Relayer1
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
We do have evidence of things from one timeline branch remaining in another branch after the point of divergence, for instance, Chief O'Brien in "Visionary" onward. So I think that something originating in one branch of a timeline fork and travelling back before the fork into the common history would remain present in both forks after the divergence. At least, that's the simplest, least convoluted answer, and time travel is enough of a headache without complicating it more than necessary.
I agree it should be there (otherwise surely Nero and Old Spock would have vanished too?), but doesn't that mean all so-called time loops/predestination paradoxes are an illusion created by our multiverse POV? We just happened to be in the correct branch of history to make it appear meaningful?

Makes me wonder what other "orphaned" temporal artifacts there are out there...
So, Spock Prime and Data Prime are in the JJverse ! Does Spock know about Data's head ? If I recall correctly Picard would have known about this, and he melded with Spock...
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Old June 13 2012, 11:59 PM   #317
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I agree it should be there (otherwise surely Nero and Old Spock would have vanished too?), but doesn't that mean all so-called time loops/predestination paradoxes are an illusion created by our multiverse POV? We just happened to be in the correct branch of history to make it appear meaningful?
I don't see why it would be an illusion just because there's another time track branching off in the interim. After all, by Many Worlds theory, new timelines are spontaneously branching off all the time. So there's probably no such thing as a causal loop that doesn't cross over some side branches along the way.

(And I don't like the term "predestination paradox" because it's actually the exact opposite of a paradox. Everything in the loop happens only one self-consistent way. A paradox is when you get two contradictory outcomes that can't be reconciled.)



KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Mr Laser Beam wrote:
And given that the technology of the Abramsverse is obviously more advanced (and that's in 2233 - their 24th century will be unrecognizable), nobody will get
anything useful out of it anyway
I think you're confusing "more advanced" in-universe technology with updated production values. Look at the Gorn from "Arena" - was it a guy in an obviously fake rubber suit, or was it a fearsome and intelligent lizard monster? It's the latter, obviously - and in that same way, the Enterprise is a 23rd century technological marvel, whether it's the way it looked to us in 1966 or 2009.
Exactly. It isn't the in-universe technology that's more advanced, it's the technology of the TV or film producers creating an interpretation of the technology these fictional characters hypothetically employ in their imaginary universe. Taking the difference in production design, budget, and filmmaking technology literally as evidence of different in-universe technological advancement is as silly as assuming that Saavik got extensive cosmetic surgery and a larynx transplant between TWOK and TSFS. The difference is only in the production's interpretation of a fictional concept; within the fictional universe itself, the difference doesn't exist.

After all, it's not like a 23rd-century starship would actually have badly wrinkled, backlit posters of space scenes in its bridge viewscreens. Those were an imperfect representation of something that was supposed to be more advanced and high-tech. So the same could be said for other bits of TOS technology that look old-fashioned.
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Old June 14 2012, 02:13 AM   #318
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I think you're confusing "more advanced" in-universe technology with updated production values.
No, I assume that the appearance of the Narada was the catalyst - meaning, Starfleet got whatever information it could out of the sensor readings of that ship, and thus upped their standards a bit.
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Old June 14 2012, 02:32 AM   #319
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I think you're confusing "more advanced" in-universe technology with updated production values.
No, I assume that the appearance of the Narada was the catalyst - meaning, Starfleet got whatever information it could out of the sensor readings of that ship, and thus upped their standards a bit.
Well, yes, it's universally accepted that the technology got more advanced after the timeline divergence. But you were saying that it was already "more advanced" in 2233, before the Narada arrived. So I'm confused about what it is you're actually saying.
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Old June 14 2012, 02:40 AM   #320
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Christopher wrote: View Post
But you were saying that it was already "more advanced" in 2233, before the Narada arrived.
No, I was not. Not intentionally, anyway.
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Old June 14 2012, 02:57 AM   #321
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Okay, I thought you were using that point to justify the "timelines were always separate" argument. Apparently you haven't offered any particular justification for it, just asserted it as your preference and left it at that. So be it. You can believe that if you want, but it's not the creators' intent, so if there ever were a DTI or other tale commissioned to cross over the novelverse (or at least the Prime timeline) with the Abramsverse, it would have to be based on the prevailing assumptions of CBS/Paramount, so it would treat them as having a common history up until mid-March 2233.

Not that I expect to see any such thing published by Pocket in the foreseeable future.
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Old June 14 2012, 06:59 AM   #322
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

There's nothing in the movie that says it has to be "our" Old Spock. It's an Old Spock. There's probably billions of them in the multiverse. With the timeline branching all over the place, both spontaneously and through deliberate action, there's probably more Spocks than you could count. One data point is hardly enough to draw a definite conclusion from. It's not like we saw the Enterprise-E and crew, looking pretty much like we last saw them. The movie is vague enough that pretty much any explanation could work. It's not like we're going to see the old universe again anytime soon.
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Old June 14 2012, 09:26 AM   #323
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I enjoyed Forgotten History, but not as much as Watching the Clock.

Stringing the separate TOS time travel stories into a cohesive storyline was clever. Just about all of it made sense. My only issue is that Lucsly and Dulmur felt like guest stars in their own book. If it had been labeled a TOS book, I'm sure my perception would have completely changed. The power of marketing I guess. But then again, I want to see more of them and their lives.

And while Christopher apparently is not a fan of combat and ships, I find that he's the ironically the best at writing about ships and characters' relationships with them. Here it's about Scotty and his bairns (never have understood that term). Before it was his description of why Picard was assigned the Portia or describing the fire on the Stargazer. Sensible reasons or great love expressed for these vessels. And here his engines are given a proper send off.

As for all the TAS references, anytime something came up that I did not understand, I had to look it up. I just bought a new TV two weeks ago and it has streaming Netflix on it, so now I can actually watch TAS if I want to (another show to add to my to-watch pile).
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Old June 14 2012, 09:51 AM   #324
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
KingDaniel wrote: View Post
I think you're confusing "more advanced" in-universe technology with updated production values.
No, I assume that the appearance of the Narada was the catalyst - meaning, Starfleet got whatever information it could out of the sensor readings of that ship, and thus upped their standards a bit.
I guess that could explain why the Enterprise in 2258 had the kind of pulse phasers we saw in Wrath of Khan (2283ish, with the refit in 2270something in the Prime U), or why Starfleet built a 725m Enterprise rather than a 289m one, but I hate the idea that it's why the sets and special effects look far snazzier than those in Nemesis in 2378 or even the USS Relativity in 28XX. IMO if you can recast characters, you can recast ships, sets and swap out effects just the same, leaving the underlying stories themselves unaffected.
RPJOB wrote: View Post
There's nothing in the movie that says it has to be "our" Old Spock. It's an Old Spock. There's probably billions of them in the multiverse. With the timeline branching all over the place, both spontaneously and through deliberate action, there's probably more Spocks than you could count. One data point is hardly enough to draw a definite conclusion from. It's not like we saw the Enterprise-E and crew, looking pretty much like we last saw them. The movie is vague enough that pretty much any explanation could work. It's not like we're going to see the old universe again anytime soon.
Except of course, it renders Nimoy's cameo and the entire time travel aspect of the movie pointless.
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Old June 14 2012, 11:30 AM   #325
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

If you're suggesting that the Abramsverse DTI could get involved, then yes, there's stories there.
If there is a DTI in the Abramsverse. We can't take it for granted that there are events in that universe that would lead to its establishment.
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Old June 14 2012, 11:53 AM   #326
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I would assume that, if anything, the knowledge that Nero and Spock were from the future would lead to the Federation and/or Starfleet establishing a DTI-like organization a little earlier than in the TOS timeline (where, as "Forgotten History" details, it's origins lie in and around the temporal escapades of Kirk and company in TOS/TAS)
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Old June 14 2012, 12:20 PM   #327
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sure, that could happen. Although that wouldn't necessarily provide the immediate means to do actual time travel, so that alone might not provide the need to create a new organization.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out the possibilities.
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Old June 14 2012, 12:31 PM   #328
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
There's nothing in the movie that says it has to be "our" Old Spock. It's an Old Spock. There's probably billions of them in the multiverse. With the timeline branching all over the place, both spontaneously and through deliberate action, there's probably more Spocks than you could count. One data point is hardly enough to draw a definite conclusion from. It's not like we saw the Enterprise-E and crew, looking pretty much like we last saw them. The movie is vague enough that pretty much any explanation could work. It's not like we're going to see the old universe again anytime soon.
JJ and co. have apparently confirmed that it IS the Spock we are all familiar with. Not quite 'on-screen' canon I suppose, but...
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Old June 14 2012, 01:52 PM   #329
Christopher
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

RPJOB wrote: View Post
There's nothing in the movie that says it has to be "our" Old Spock.
The fact that he says "I have been, and always shall be, your friend" is pretty telling. Would a Spock from an alternate reality have chosen his words the exact same way?

Besides, I'm speaking metatextually. The reason the filmmakers cast Leonard Nimoy -- coaxed him out of retirement, even -- and built the story around Spock's return from the 24th century was to make this story a legitimate continuation of the Star Trek that had come before rather than a completely disconnected version. If that hadn't been their intention, Nimoy's Ambassador Spock would not have been in the movie at all.



Sxottlan wrote: View Post
Stringing the separate TOS time travel stories into a cohesive storyline was clever. Just about all of it made sense. My only issue is that Lucsly and Dulmur felt like guest stars in their own book. If it had been labeled a TOS book, I'm sure my perception would have completely changed.
Well, I'd argue that the "main character" of DTI is the Department itself, not any single agent team. This was the origin story of the DTI and it featured a number of important DTI players from the 23rd century, notably Grey and T'Viss, as well as Aleek-Om and Andos.


And while Christopher apparently is not a fan of combat and ships, I find that he's the ironically the best at writing about ships and characters' relationships with them.
Oh, I like ships fine. I just like them better when they aren't killing people.


Here it's about Scotty and his bairns (never have understood that term).
Colloquial Scottish for "babies."
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Old June 14 2012, 02:58 PM   #330
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Re: DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
So, Spock Prime and Data Prime are in the JJverse ! Does Spock know about Data's head ? If I recall correctly Picard would have known about this, and he melded with Spock...
Oooooo! Ooooooo! We should start a rumor that Brent Spiner is appearing in the next movie!
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