Batman...

[Agent Richard07]

I always thought that Robin Williams wanted to play the Riddler, but they got Jim Carrey instead because he was a rising star.

[Aragorn]

sonak wrote:

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That doesn't make much sense. Shreck was a corrupt businessman type. Why would Dent, as the D.A. conspire with a villain like the Penguin before he becomes Two-Face?

Yes, because Burton's films were completely faithful to their source material, especially in Batman Returns.

[Christopher]

^I don't think sonak is asking about continuity with the comics so much as wondering why, just in general, a district attorney (which the first movie established Dent to be) would be cooperating with a criminal rather than hunting him. Although I suppose they could've established that Dent was corrupt before he became Two-Face, or (as some versions have portrayed him) that he already had a dual personality and a dark side before the accident made the duality visible.

[RAMA]

I dislike the first modern Batman film quite a bit, and this is not even in comparison to the Nolan films, its simply was a lot of hype and didn't come close to living up to any of it...from the badly written hero, to the over the top but ultimately ineffectual Nicholson Joker, the movie wasted a big opportunity. In general the acting was pretty poor from almost everyone. While much of the production design was interesting, even the pre-CGI FX were inferior to many of the big budget movies of the late 80s.

[Trekker4747]

Agent Richard07 wrote:

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I always thought that Robin Williams wanted to play the Riddler, but they got Jim Carrey instead because he was a rising star.

I think either, really, would have been (was) a terrible idea.

[Aragorn]

RAMA wrote:

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I dislike the first modern Batman film quite a bit, and this is not even in comparison to the Nolan films, its simply was a lot of hype and didn't come close to living up to any of it...from the badly written hero, to the over the top but ultimately ineffectual Nicholson Joker, the movie wasted a big opportunity. In general the acting was pretty poor from almost everyone. While much of the production design was interesting, even the pre-CGI FX were inferior to many of the big budget movies of the late 80s.

I think the biggest hype going for the movie was that it was the first live-action non-campy Batman. So even being a Burton movie featuring Batman instead of being a Batman movie directed by Burton, it succeeded.

[Admiral James Kirk]

^It was more than that though. Everywhere you went Batman was being pimped to you. Every commercial was for Batman. Every toy was a Batman toy. Go into a comic store and every comic was Batman. Every tee shirt logo was a bat. Every poster had a bat. People were going to the movies just to watch the trailer!

Batman was everywhere! I've never seen hype like it before or since.The two biggest hyped movies I've seen since are Episode I and The Avengers and even then it was like baby hype compared to Batman. To make it worse, some stupid fucking critic had to run his mouth and declare Batman "The movie of the decade!"

Any movie with that much hype was going to fall short. Especially Batman. I didn't initially like the 89 flick. I came to appreciate it after repeat viewings. I couldn't honestly say that I liked Tim Burton's Batman until the DVD came out.

I always loved Returns, though. The hype-gods at Warners had blown their wads on the first movie so I went in with reasonable expectations.

[Christopher]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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I think either, really, would have been (was) a terrible idea.

I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do think it was a mistake to approach the Riddler as a Joker clone, a cackling maniac. The Riddler should be a more cunning, intellectual foe, a villain with a certain degree of class to him (his original appearance was modeled on Fred Astaire, after all). After all, jokes are about making you laugh or groan, but riddles are about making you think, perplexing you with puzzles and mysteries. Batman is the World's Greatest Detective, so the Riddler should be a source of intricate conundrums for him to pit his mind against. (Although that's rarely achieved, since not a lot of comics or TV writers are smart or devious enough to come up with really good riddles or puzzles. The first two B:TAS Riddler episodes gave poor Eddie really lame material. At least Batman Forever had the sense to hire Will Shortz to concoct the riddles, though they were a bit anticlimactic given that.)

[the G-man]

Considering that, prior to BTAS, most versions of the Riddler (including the comic books) were modeled on Frank Gorshin's cackling madman, I don't think it's surprising how the character was portrayed. The producers obviously wanted that kind of characterization, which is why they approached the two actors they did.

Furthermore, from what I understand, Carrey is/was a lifelong comic book fan and has a pretty good understanding of what makes Batman tick. I remember when he was doing interviews for "Batman Forever", there was one he did with Val Kilmer and the rest of the cast in Rolling Stone.

One of the questions was "who is the great love of Batman's life." And Carrey answered "his dead parents."

He was the only one who got that.

I always thought it was a shame that Carrey hadn't been the Joker originally.

[Christopher]

the G-man wrote:

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Considering that, prior to BTAS, most versions of the Riddler (including the comic books) were modeled on Frank Gorshin's cackling madman, I don't think it's surprising how the character was portrayed.

Gorshin's Riddler may have been prone to evil laughter, but he wasn't a lunatic. He was shrewd, canny, and dangerous, and could snap from maniacal chuckling to cold rage or malicious calculation in a heartbeat. So there was some real menace below the hysteria. (I've seen it argued, persuasively, that Gorshin's Riddler was the prototype for Mark Hamill's interpretation of the Joker.)

And yeah, I get why there's precedent for portraying the Riddler as similar to the Joker. I just think it would be more interesting to play up the things that make him different from the Joker -- the fact that he isn't a deranged, hyperactive homicidal maniac, but a cool, calculating mastermind and gameplayer. Though of course that never would've fit the tone Schumacher was going for.

One of the questions was "who is the great love of Batman's life." And Carrey answered "his dead parents."

He was the only one who got that.

I always thought it was a shame that Carrey hadn't been the Joker originally.

Good call on Carrey's part. And I agree, he would've been much more suitable for the Joker than Nicholson was. (Although Robin Williams might've been even better. He can certainly project a more menacing side, more convincingly than Carrey.)

[Trekker4747]

Christopher wrote:

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I don't know if I'd go that far, but I do think it was a mistake to approach the Riddler as a Joker clone, a cackling maniac. The Riddler should be a more cunning, intellectual foe, a villain with a certain degree of class to him (his original appearance was modeled on Fred Astaire, after all). After all, jokes are about making you laugh or groan, but riddles are about making you think, perplexing you with puzzles and mysteries. Batman is the World's Greatest Detective, so the Riddler should be a source of intricate conundrums for him to pit his mind against. (Although that's rarely achieved, since not a lot of comics or TV writers are smart or devious enough to come up with really good riddles or puzzles. The first two B:TAS Riddler episodes gave poor Eddie really lame material. At least Batman Forever had the sense to hire Will Shortz to concoct the riddles, though they were a bit anticlimactic given that.)

Yeah, The Riddler should really be darker and far more interesting a character, he'd be interesting to see used in the Nolan Verse. He should be something like a cross between the BTK and Zodiac Killers, both known for puzzling the cops with their MO the BTK killer in particular known for calling and taunting the police.

Good call on Carrey's part. And I agree, he would've been much more suitable for the Joker than Nicholson was. (Although Robin Williams might've been even better. He can certainly project a more menacing side, more convincingly than Carrey.)

Not to mention Williams was infinitely more known than Carrey in 1989.

[Agent Richard07]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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The Riddler should really be darker and far more interesting a character, he'd be interesting to see used in the Nolan Verse.

Just imagine Leonardo DiCaprio in the part.

[Admiral James Kirk]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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He should be something like a cross between the BTK and Zodiac Killers, both known for puzzling the cops with their MO the BTK killer in particular known for calling and taunting the police.

Yeah he liked to taunt the cops but Dennis Rader got caught because he was a fucktard who didn't understand computers.

He actually wrote the cops and asked if floppy disks were traceable. The cops responded (via the papers) "No", so he sent them one with more taunting. Naturally they used the metadata on the disk to track his psycho ass down.

Oddly enough after all he'd done Rader had the nerve to get upset that the cops lied to him.

Hardly a master criminal like The Riddler.

[Trekker4747]

Admiral James Kirk wrote:

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Yeah he liked to taunt the cops but Dennis Rader got caught because he was a fucktard who didn't understand computers.

He actually wrote the cops and asked if floppy disks were traceable. The cops responded (via the papers) "No", so he sent them one with more taunting. Naturally they used the metadata on the disk to track his psycho ass down.

Oddly enough after all he'd done Rader had the nerve to get upset that the cops lied to him.

Hardly a master criminal like The Riddler.

Well yeah, I knew all of that, he fucked up at the end but only because he was trying to move out of his element, still he eluded the cops for some time while keeping in some meaningful contact with them, taunting them.

Just imagine Leonardo DiCaprio in the part.

Honestly that'd be damn interesting to see.

[Christopher]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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Yeah, The Riddler should really be darker and far more interesting a character, he'd be interesting to see used in the Nolan Verse. He should be something like a cross between the BTK and Zodiac Killers, both known for puzzling the cops with their MO the BTK killer in particular known for calling and taunting the police.

I imagine a Nolanverse Riddler as more of an organized crime kingpin who runs the rackets like a chess game. I mean, that fits the MO of Nolan's Bat-villains; Ra's and the Joker were both master manipulators with multiple layers of mindfrakkery to be peeled back before you got to the core of their plans, and if Bane is anything like his comics counterpart (rather than the disappointing screen adaptations to date), he should be much the same.

And his rival crime boss could easily be a short guy named Cobblepot who fancies himself a member of high society and has been known to commit assassinations with a dagger concealed in an umbrella...