Batman...

[Christopher]

Sci wrote:

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...Bruce has made a difference. Batman and his allies have saved hundreds, if not thousands, of lives in Gotham. They literally brought Gotham City back from the dead during the No Man's Land crisis.

Yeah, sure, his mission to prevent any murders from ever happening again in Gotham is quixotic -- but so is the mission of any police department, to try to fight crime. You don't give up on something like that because it's impossible to completely solve; you keep doing it and make it your life's work.

That's true -- but Bruce could make a lot more difference fighting crime just by paying to put up streetlights and security cameras, funding an expansion of the police force, etc. Though I guess you could argue that as long as Gotham's government was corrupt, he couldn't be sure the money would be spent appropriately. And we do often hear about the Wayne Foundation's charity efforts. But they don't seem to make much of an impact on the state of Gotham, since the city needs to stay dark and dangerous so Batman can continue to have adventures every month.

JaxsBrokenHeart wrote:

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I do find it amusing that if you view Burton and Schumacher's films as in continuity, its hilariously the most optimistic view of the character's work as it suggests his war on crime is working. The city really does seem much better from where it is is in Batman to B&R.

Well, Gotham in The Dark Knight has definitely improved since Batman Begins, with more law and order, more hope among the public, etc. Once Batman and Harvey brought down the gangs, the city was in the best state it had been in since Bruce's boyhood -- until the Joker came in and waged his anarchic campaign to tear down all the stability Batman and Harvey had created.

But yeah, I guess I kind of see your point. Certainly between Returns and Forever there must've been one hell of an architecture boom, with an emphasis on gigantic Art Deco statues and neon lighting.

Although if they are in continuity, that does leave the question of how Harvey Dent turned from a suave African-American into a craggy-faced Caucasian.

[Sci]

Christopher wrote:

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That's true -- but Bruce could make a lot more difference fighting crime just by paying to put up streetlights and security cameras, funding an expansion of the police force, etc. Though I guess you could argue that as long as Gotham's government was corrupt, he couldn't be sure the money would be spent appropriately. And we do often hear about the Wayne Foundation's charity efforts. But they don't seem to make much of an impact on the state of Gotham, since the city needs to stay dark and dangerous so Batman can continue to have adventures every month.

Indeed, this, like many things, is a function of the fact that the Batman story -- like those of all comics -- is trapped in the Eternal Middle, with no true beginning or end.

Personally, I interpret things such that his campaign has improved Gotham, and noticeably so -- but that it's also led to the rise of more unstable elements like the Joker, Two-Face, etc.

Well, Gotham in The Dark Knight has definitely improved since Batman Begins, with more law and order, more hope among the public, etc. Once Batman and Harvey brought down the gangs, the city was in the best state it had been in since Bruce's boyhood -- until the Joker came in and waged his anarchic campaign to tear down all the stability Batman and Harvey had created.

Exactly.

Although if they are in continuity, that does leave the question of how Harvey Dent turned from a suave African-American into a craggy-faced Caucasian.

"My gosh, that was really powerful acid they threw at his face, wasn't it?"

[Christopher]

Sci wrote:

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Personally, I interpret things such that his campaign has improved Gotham, and noticeably so -- but that it's also led to the rise of more unstable elements like the Joker, Two-Face, etc.

Which is pretty much the premise of The Dark Knight. Batman defeats regular crime, but that creates a void that the supercriminal rises to fill. They even set this up at the end of Batman Begins when they spoke of escalation.

[Trekker4747]

Well, since we're treading to the topic....

LINK

[Captaindemotion]

Christopher wrote:

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In theory, yes, they were meant to be. They share Michael Gough's Alfred and Pat Hingle's Commissioner Gordon. And Forever had an indirect reference to Catwoman in dialogue. Burton was originally going to direct the third film, and he did produce it. But when Schumacher took over, he did a wholesale revamp on the series, so it has a different feel and sensibility despite being nominally in continuity.

At the time, ...Forever was viewed as the third Batman film, the sequel to Batman and Batman Returns. But I think that had it been made today, then it would have been described as a reboot - different actor, different director, different tone, different look for Gotham, different soundtrack, different Batmobile, different costume, etc.

[Greg Cox]

Sci wrote:

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"My gosh, that was really powerful acid they threw at his face, wasn't it?"

Complete with a bleaching agent . . . .

[Admiral James Kirk]

The tragedy isn't the scars on Harvey Dent's face. The tragedy is that Harvey Dent went from looking like Billy Dee Williams to looking like Tommy Lee Jones. Poor bastard.

[Donald Draper]

Well if you want a somewhat rational explanation Harvey Dent could have been suffering from Vitiligo. As he started to slowly lose his skin pigmentation he covered small light spots with dark makeup to match his natural complexion. But as it progressed the majority of his face was without his natural color so he started to cover the dark spots. So he did not need his whole face covered with makeup. This is how people with the condition sometimes deal with it.

Imagine the added effect of having acid thrown onto half of your face if you already had Vitiligo. He had lost most of his natural complexion and now he had permanent scars too. Talk about the loss of identity and psychological damage!

I know none of this is in the movies, buts its an interesting way of tying two actors playing the same role in the same continuity together.

[Silvercrest]

Christopher wrote:

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But yeah, I guess I kind of see your point. Certainly between Returns and Forever there must've been one hell of an architecture boom, with an emphasis on gigantic Art Deco statues and neon lighting.

After the theatrics of Batman, the Joker, the Penguin, and Catwoman parading through the city, it inspired the city go arty in a big way. They started by installing neon everywhere.

Although if they are in continuity, that does leave the question of how Harvey Dent turned from a suave African-American into a craggy-faced Caucasian

He didn't. The art lights just make him look that way.

[Aragorn]

Christopher wrote:

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Although if they are in continuity, that does leave the question of how Harvey Dent turned from a suave African-American into a craggy-faced Caucasian.

Henry Harvey Dent was in Batman.

Harvey Bartholomew Dent was in Batman Forever.

[Admiral James Kirk]

[DWF]

I just finished rewatching the '89 movie and I think it still holds up. I didn't like it al that much when it first came out, but I've come to think that Tim Burton was trying for a more operatic approach, with the big sets and dystopian setting of Gotham and I think it works better if you think it it in those terms.

[Christopher]

Captaindemotion wrote:

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At the time, ...Forever was viewed as the third Batman film, the sequel to Batman and Batman Returns. But I think that had it been made today, then it would have been described as a reboot - different actor, different director, different tone, different look for Gotham, different soundtrack, different Batmobile, different costume, etc.

Except it carried forward the same Alfred and Commissioner Gordon. As far as I know, the only series reboot that's brought back an actor from the former incarnation in the same role is the James Bond reboot (with Dame Judi Dench). Unless you believe the security guard Lou Ferrigno played in The Incredible Hulk is the same one he played in Hulk.

[Donald Draper]

Agreed. The Burton and Schumacher films are in the same continuity the same way Dr. No, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Live and Let Die, The Living Daylights, and Goldeneye are.

[Marc]

Admiral James Kirk wrote:

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The tragedy isn't the scars on Harvey Dent's face. The tragedy is that Harvey Dent went from looking like Billy Dee Williams to looking like Tommy Lee Jones. Poor bastard.

Read once that Billy Dee Williams took the roll of Dent in Batman because down the track he'd get to do the transition to Two-Face?