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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 2 2012, 02:10 AM   #16
Timewalker
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9. I wouldn't consider his little project to be any sort of canon whatsoever.

There are earlier parts of the Trek TV and movie productions I don't consider canon, either - ST V, and any movies after First Contact. The only reason I reluctantly accept that movie is because I really like the character of Lily, and the movie was referenced in a Voyager episode. I accept NONE of the Enterprise series as canon.

But that's the beauty of having so much choice. Some bits of the Trek universe I can enjoy as simply one more alternate universe of "what if it had happened this way"... and some of it I can completely ignore just because I think it was so poorly done that it doesn't deserve ANY place in the Trek universe.

BTW, I read the book that the Garak actor wrote. It was terrific, and I say that as someone who doesn't really care for Cardassians or DS9 in general. But I always found Garak an intriguing character.
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Old June 2 2012, 02:34 AM   #17
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9. I wouldn't consider his little project to be any sort of canon whatsoever.
Canon, by definition, is the exact opposite of the individual fan's opinion. You can choose for yourself whether to count it in your personal continuity, but it's a complete abuse of vocabulary to call that "canon."
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Old June 2 2012, 03:52 AM   #18
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Christopher, every few months I notice your avatar and think "How much longer until Only Superhuman comes out?" And every time I check it is still months away. Still looking forward to it!
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Old June 2 2012, 04:36 AM   #19
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Christopher wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9. I wouldn't consider his little project to be any sort of canon whatsoever.
Canon, by definition, is the exact opposite of the individual fan's opinion. You can choose for yourself whether to count it in your personal continuity, but it's a complete abuse of vocabulary to call that "canon."
I should think it would be an "abuse of vocabulary" to choose something that clearly isn't canon and declare it to be canon. For example, there were several TOS novels that featured a Horta crewmember. I enjoyed those stories, but they're certainly not canon. Neither are the terrific fanfic stories I've been reading lately (although I wish they could have been canon, since they are better stories than a lot of the ones that did get made).

I reject the above-mentioned movies and series from the parts of the canon I pay attention to, simply because I LOATHE them. For me, they Do. Not. Exist.

I'm not saying nobody else can say they're canon. I don't think they should be, but that's just my own opinion. I would guess there are some aspects of canon Star Trek I like that others wish weren't canon. As I am free to ignore Enterprise and never worry whether or not I ever see the last 2.5 seasons of it, other people are free to ignore the episodes they hate or prefer not to ever see.
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Old June 2 2012, 04:55 AM   #20
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

But the problem here is that you're using the word "canon" wrong. Canon is declared and decided entirely by Paramount & CBS. You can you don't consider it in continuity with the stuff you like, but canon is the officially sanctioned stuff, and no matter how much you might dislike something, you can't change the fact that it is canon. Canon is fact, not opinion.
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Old June 2 2012, 05:12 AM   #21
Timewalker
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

JD wrote: View Post
But the problem here is that you're using the word "canon" wrong. Canon is declared and decided entirely by Paramount & CBS. You can you don't consider it in continuity with the stuff you like, but canon is the officially sanctioned stuff, and no matter how much you might dislike something, you can't change the fact that it is canon. Canon is fact, not opinion.
Re-read what I said, rather than what you think I meant. They're not the same.

Of course the officially sanctioned stuff is canon, no matter how crappy it may be, how stupid, or how retconned. I'm just saying that there are PARTS of the canon I can choose to IGNORE - as in NOT WATCH/READ - and Paramount/CBS can't force me.

So Michael Dorn could make his stupid little movie, and maybe TPTB will consider it canon and make the novelists jump through hoops to accommodate the "new reality." But that doesn't mean I have to like it, nor does it mean I have to watch that movie, or read anything based on it.

It's like the 2009 movie. I finally watched the thing, as it turned up on TV a few months ago. It's just as stupid as I figured it would be, and I do NOT consider it any kind of canon I care to acknowledge. The studios can call it whatever they want, as they own it.

But I won't watch it again, nor will I watch anything else based on it. I won't read any novels based on it. Thankfully the Trek universe is big enough to keep me entertained in other areas.
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Old June 2 2012, 06:53 AM   #22
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Then you might want to call it 'personal canon' rather than just canon. Canon, for Trek, is what the TV studios & films say it is.


*edited out wrong bit*

I'm not holding my breath on a Worf show. Might be cool, and if it happens I expect it'll either be worked in or not.
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Old June 2 2012, 01:21 PM   #23
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

^No, don't call it "personal canon," because that's a contradiction in terms. "Canon" means official. It's the exact opposite of personal opinion. In its literal definition, it means what the church defines as official doctrine or accepted holy texts. Canon comes from the institution, not from the individual.

The mistake people make when speaking of fictional canon is treating "canon" as though it were a value judgment, rather than simply a description of a category. It's certainly a value judgment in its religious usage, but it shouldn't be in a fictional context. It doesn't mean "what's true" or "what's real," since it's all made up, after all. Any long-running canon ignores or contradicts parts of itself, so whether something is canon has nothing to do with whether it's treated as "real."

Canon is canon whether you accept it or not. Personally I don't consider "The Alternative Factor" or "The Counter-Clock Incident" or "Threshold" or various other episodes to have happened. I don't count them in my personal continuity. But I still accept that they are part of the canon, because "canon" simply means "the original body of work as distinct from derivative works." That they are part of the canon is simply a fact, not an opinion or value judgment. Something can be part of the canon and still be disregarded by the individual.
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Old June 2 2012, 02:58 PM   #24
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9.
Ignoring the whole canon bit for a moment... may I ask what you meant with the "he ate TNG, then he ate DS9" phrase? I'm not familiar with that one.

The closest connection I can think of is the Troi cellular peptide cake (with mint frosting).
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Old June 2 2012, 03:13 PM   #25
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Fer wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9.
Ignoring the whole canon bit for a moment... may I ask what you meant with the "he ate TNG, then he ate DS9" phrase? I'm not familiar with that one.

The closest connection I can think of is the Troi cellular peptide cake (with mint frosting).
Isn't Timewalker suggesting that Dorn subsumed the identity of those shows beneath himself? I certainly don't agree, but that seemed to be his intention.
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Old June 2 2012, 06:40 PM   #26
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

If the Michael Dorn movie does get made it will probably be as embarrassing as that steaming pile of turd known as that 'Of Gods And Men' -- which surely no-one considers part of their personal canon/continuity!
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Old June 2 2012, 11:18 PM   #27
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

^ I do. I liked OGAM very much.
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Old June 2 2012, 11:18 PM   #28
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

wahwahkits wrote: View Post
If the Michael Dorn movie does get made it will probably be as embarrassing as that steaming pile of turd known as that 'Of Gods And Men'
That supposed-fanfilm was rather embarrassing, full of fanwankery coincidences and a few strange performances and script choices, although it has certainly its fans. I much prefer the two "Starship Exeter" eps (even though the second one is yet to release its final segment), and the ever-improving "New Voyages"/"Phase II".

Any Captain Worf project, official or fanmade, has as much chance of being good as being "embarrassing". So much depends on script quality, budget, time, acting performances, directorial skills, etc. The concept is just one element; Dorn's pitch of a closer-focus on a small ship's crew is probably sensible. (But nothing new; remember there were strong rumours of the other pitch made at the time of the "Enterprise" pitch: Captain Nog on a small Starfleet ship, chasing Section 31.)

Of course, there are no savings to be made re costuming and sets on any new project, because Paramount sold everything in the Christie's and It's a Wrap! auctions. That budget-savings component was what made a "Captain Sulu" series slightly more viable in the early 90s.
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Old June 2 2012, 11:55 PM   #29
Timewalker
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Christopher wrote: View Post
Something can be part of the canon and still be disregarded by the individual.
Isn't that what I've been saying all along???!

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
Fer wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I would ignore anything Michael Dorn did, because I can't stand Worf. First he ate TNG, then he ate DS9.
Ignoring the whole canon bit for a moment... may I ask what you meant with the "he ate TNG, then he ate DS9" phrase? I'm not familiar with that one.
Isn't Timewalker suggesting that Dorn subsumed the identity of those shows beneath himself? I certainly don't agree, but that seemed to be his intention.
I am saying that (in my not-at-all-humble opinion) Worf went from being one of the "and the rest" characters to one whose point of view nearly took over the shows. There was far too much Klingon stuff. There was far too much preaching about "Klingon honor" trumping everything else, including Starfleet regulations and Federation law. Worf was the most judgmental s.o.b. I've ever seen on any Star Trek series that I watched regularly. The only other character who comes close is Vedek/Kai Wynn (I totally despised her, too). And Jadzia was already an intolerable character to me before Worf joined DS9; the combination of the two of them just made it that much worse. I'll say this, though - Worf had ONE good line in all his time on DS9: "Nice hat."

BTW, please don't refer to me as male; that little pink icon below my username indicates I'm female.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Of course, there are no savings to be made re costuming and sets on any new project, because Paramount sold everything in the Christie's and It's a Wrap! auctions. That budget-savings component was what made a "Captain Sulu" series slightly more viable in the early 90s.
I really wish they could have done a Captain Sulu series.
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Old June 3 2012, 12:01 AM   #30
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Re: new canon vs novelverse: worst case scenario

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Isn't that what I've been saying all along???!
Yes, but you were calling it your "canon". The term "canon" refers to the one official core of a work. What you were describing was your "personal continuity".
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