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Old May 28 2012, 11:31 PM   #61
TIN_MAN
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

throwback wrote: View Post
Now as for the classification of the Enterprise as a Constittution-class starship in the Star Trek Concordance, I am accepting this on faith alone as I have never seen the first edition. Now, I would like to know, what was Bjo Trimble's source for this information?
We’ll probably never know for sure? All we know is that “Constitution” was one of the Enterprise’s sister ships listed in TMoST, and that “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” was on the phaser schematic that Scotty was viewing in "The Trouble with Tribbles". Trimble probably just put two and two together and drew the obvious conclusion? But as to whom in the production hierarchy was responsible for Constitution-class on the schematic; it was probably Jefferies, since he was in charge of the art department.
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Old May 29 2012, 12:30 AM   #62
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

It's true that Khan's schematic isn't clear enough to make much sense of it onscreen. It's too far away from the camera to make out more than the illustration. I can't find the screencap on TrekCore from "Trouble" for comparison, so it's possible that it was the same schematic reused. But I don't recall at what point in the ep Scotty is looking at it.
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Old May 29 2012, 12:46 AM   #63
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

After Captain Kirk speaks with Captain Koloth in GM Lurry's office, the Federation captain is seen walking into a rec room aboard the USS Enterprise. CE Scotty is sitting at a table examining an image on the monitor.

Kirk: Another technical journey, Scotty?
Scott: Aye.
Kirk: Don't you ever relax?
Scott: I am relaxing.

The technical journal is the image in question.

Here is the image from TrekCore.org:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...-Trekpulse.jpg

Here is the technical journal from Memory Alpha:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ary_phaser.jpg

Here is the clearest image of the technical manual from "Space Seed":

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...e_Seed_127.JPG

The two technical manuals, or journals, are not the same.
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Old May 29 2012, 01:01 AM   #64
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

^^ This might help...http://www.trekplace.com/article10.html ... although the phaser schematic is here incorrectly attributed to "Space Seed" rather than “tribbles”. The schematic used for “Space Seed” appears to have been part of an actual airplane schematic?

Memory alpha also incorrectly attributes the phaser schematic to "Space Seed", as do several other sites! They really need to correct and update this info because it's causing a lot of confusion.
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Old May 29 2012, 01:11 AM   #65
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Thanks. It's entirely possible of course that the term "Constitution Class" does exist on the Khan schematic, but unless there's a larger and clearer version available somewhere, I'm not sure it can be judged either way.
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Old May 29 2012, 02:01 AM   #66
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Just FYI, GSchnitzer replied to a question in the topic Doomsday Machine Question-What Does Decker Exclaim? over in the Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series topic about how the shooting script describes the Constellation. Here's his reply:
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
...There's not much there there we don't already know.

"Scene 8 INT. ENTERPRISE BRIDGE - ON VIEWSCREEN

SHOOTING PAST Sulu on the left, holding part of naviga-
tor in the right. Showing an Enterprise-class starship
seen small at first, but growing in perspective as the
Enterprise approaches it, till it fills most of the
viewscreen. We see that it is the Constellation, sitting
dead in space, with several large, neat holes punched in
the warp-drive pods, obviously a derelict, She is canted
at an odd angle and looks somehow grotesque in her help-
lessness."

Other scenes have even less content. Here's Scene 11, when we return from the opening credits:

"FADE IN:
Scene 11 EXT. SPACE - FULL SHOT - CONSTELLATION

The wrecked Constellation floating dead in space, canted
to one side; the holes in the power nacelles are clearly
visible."

So it looks like the took an "Enterprise-class" starship model and poked some large holes in it and made it look obviously derelict. And script-wise, that's about all they had to work with.
Which pretty conclusively indicates that the ship was supposed to be the same class as the Enterprise, not some other model, despite the registry or the differences in the AMT kit.
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Old May 29 2012, 02:58 AM   #67
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

The Making of Star Trek classifies the USS Enterprise as an Enterprise-type starship that has been in service for fifty years.

The script for the episode "The Doomsday Machine" classifies the USS Constellation as an Enterprise-class starship.

A sign in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan classifies the USS Enterprise as an Enterprise-class starship.

Then, starting in the movie Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, there is the first canonical reference to the USS Enterprise as a Constititution-class starship. This reference is from the Star Fleet Technical Manual, a fandom publication. Also, in fandom, we have the Greg Jein article and the Star Trek Concordance which classify the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship. Greg Jein bases his assumption on a technical journal that may have been the depiction of another starship class's phasers, and it's not clear where Bjo Trimble got her assumption from.

Then in 1987, with the episode "The Naked Now", there is the first time when a character thru dialog classifies the USS Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship.

I would say that this is an example where fandom trumped canon, and the class of the ship changed because the people involved in ST: TNG were more familiar with the literature produced by the fans than that produced by the production team behind the original series.
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Old May 29 2012, 10:23 AM   #68
Kenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Actually, I think "Starship class" was consistently used in TOS, not "Enterprise class".

It appears on the Enterprise bridge dedication plaque and on the Jefferies drawings used in "Elaan of Troyus", as well as in dialogue every time a ship that looks like the Enterprise is shown on screen ("Doomsday Machine", "Ultimate Computer", etc.).

I was under the impression that "Enterprise class" only appears once in The Making of Star Trek, right under a sentence where Starship class is also used, and then in ST:TMP.

"Starship class" was canon during TOS, and "Constitution class" didn't come about until the mid-1970's among fans when Franz Joseph's Blueprints came out the same year Greg Jein's "Jonathan Doe Starship" essay was published.

But I don't have a first edition (I mean the fan-produced mimeographed edition, not the later Ballantine edition) of Bjo Trimble's Concordance and so I might be wrong about the timetable for the "Constitution class".
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Old May 29 2012, 01:58 PM   #69
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Our old friend Capt April asked me to post this here.



It's the first ever reference to the Constitution Class, published in the 1968 ST Concordance.

Last edited by Forbin; May 29 2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old May 29 2012, 08:55 PM   #70
throwback
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I am amused by the description provided in the Concordance.
I think these two are winners.

"...somewhat larger than a 20th century naval battleship..."

"...a rear hangar deck large enough to contain a whole fleet of 20th century jet liners..."

The largest battleship was the Japanese battleship Yamato with a length of 263 meters (862 ft 10 inches). However, a production sketch from TOS shows the USS Enterprise in comparison to the aircraft carrier Enterprise (CVA-65). The carrier had a length of 342 meters (1,123 ft.)

I wonder what jet liners WGIII had in mind when writing that line, and how many liners constitute a fleet. By 1968, these jet liners were in operation:

* BAC One-Eleven
* Boeing 707
* Boeing 727
* Convair 880
* de Havilland Comet
* Douglas DC-8
* Hawker Siddeley Trident
* Ilyushin IL-62
* McDonnell Douglas DC-9
* Sud Aviation Caravelle
* Tupolev Tu-104
* Tupolev Tu-154
* Vickers VC10

There is a great amount of variety in that list with a wide range in the length of the body, length from wingtip to wingtip, and height.

Who was WGIII? What was his connection, if any, to the production office at Star Trek?

Was the Concordance, First Edition, released before or after The Making of Star Trek which was published by Ballantine in September 1968?
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Old May 29 2012, 11:28 PM   #71
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

^^
My guess is that WGIII stands for Writer's Guide revision 3 and TY is for Tomorrow is Yesterday.
However, the info is a bit different in the Writer's Guide reveision 3, dated April 17, 1967:

THE U.S.S. ENTERPRISE

THE VESSEL
The U.S.S. Enterprise is a spaceship, official
designation "starship class"; somewhat larger
than a present-day naval cruiser, it is the
largest and most modern type vessel in the
Starfleet Service. It has a crew of 430 persons,
approximately one-third of then female.

The purpose of the U.S.S. Enterprise is to give
our audience a "home base", a familiar and com-
fortable counterpoint to the bizarre and unusual
things and places we see during our episodes.
Where possible we try to emphasize and play to
the size, complexity, and varied functions of
the Enterprise. This does not mean you must
always use the Enterprise or start every story
there.

The "Saucer Section" of the vessel (at the top
of which is cur command bridge) is eleven decks
thick at the middle. The Engineering Section
(to which the two engine nacelles are attached)
is equally large and complex, contains at the
rear a hangar deck large enough to hangar a
whole fleet of today's jet liners. Turbo
elevators, which can run both vertically and
horizontally
, interconnect every deck and
compartment of this huge vessel.

Included in addition to our bridge, sickbay,
Captain's cabin and other familiar standing
sets, are the widest possible variety of labs
and technical departments, computer rooms,
storage facilities, passenger accommodations,
and cargo facilities.
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Old May 30 2012, 12:00 AM   #72
Kenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Thanks for the scan from the 1968 Concordance. I've never actually seen one of those.

What's interesting is that just one year separates the Concordance from the Writer's Guide, and that fans have already decided to break from the doctrine that the Enterprise is a "Starship class" vessel as canonically stated in the series and in official materials from the producers.

How did they come to this conclusion? I wonder if the "Trouble With Tribbles" phaser diagram was already known to fans, and if so, how?

I love this old fan stuff.

But I think Bjo Trimble might get an "F" for plagiarism, however.
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Old May 30 2012, 04:18 AM   #73
TIN_MAN
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I think everyone is missing the forest for the trees, or maybe missing the tree for the forest? Anywho as I said earlier...

"All we know is that “Constitution” was one of the Enterprise’s sister ships listed in TMoST, and that “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” was on the phaser schematic that Scotty was viewing in "The Trouble with Tribbles". Trimble probably just put two and two together and drew the obvious conclusion?"

There is no contradiction between fandom and canon here, "starship class" and star ship MK IX/01 (Constitution) class are synonymous, and one is merely the abbreviation of the other. Both merely designate a capital ship of the line.

As for "Constitution", since it's one of the (12) ships like the Enterprise (i.e. Enterprise class, so to speak) given in "The Making of Star Trek" (based on intra office memos) it's clear beyond a reasonable doubt that the phaser diagram is depicting phasers for ships like the Enterprise and her sisters, and that those in the production intended this to be so.

In brief, “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” is the complete and correct designation for which "Starship class" and “Constitution class” are both interchangeable shorthand for.
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Old May 30 2012, 06:15 AM   #74
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

TIN_MAN wrote: View Post

...


In brief, “STAR SHIP MK IX/01 CONSTITUTION CLASS” is the complete and correct designation for which "Starship class" and “Constitution class” are both interchangeable shorthand for.
I really like this.

Now what do those components break down into? I would pronounce "MK" as "mark"... would I be right to do so? Maybe "make?" Maybe just "em-kay?" What is MK IX? What would MK VIII be? Does MK IX/01 refer to the whole class, some subclass or specifically to NCC-1701? Maybe the 17 in the registry number is an even shorter shorthand for "MK IX"...

Food for thought...

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Old May 30 2012, 06:15 AM   #75
throwback
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Tin Man,

I believe you are making an assumption. I believe you are making the same mistake that Greg Jein did in his article for T-Negative.

The intraoffice memos listed at least three different lists of starship. The Constitution was on at least one of these memos. The production staff were going on memory for the named ships, and were identifying each of the named starships to the Enterprise-type. The production staff had to name 13 starships that were like the Enterprise, and they had 11 names established by the episodes to work with. The production staff missed one ship - the USS Carolina - but this was understandable. This starship was mentioned very briefly in the episode "Friday's Child". So they had to fill in the gaps. The Constitution was selected because of historical importance - the USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides"). The phaser diagram wasn't mentioned in the book, and wasn't included in the illustrations provided with the book.

The chronology is this:

April 17, 1967 - 3rd Edition of Writer's Guide is published
* The USS Enterprise is classified as a "Starship Class" vessel.

Oct. 10, 1967 - "The Doomsday Machine" aired
* In the script for this episode, the Enterprise and her sister ship, the Constellation, are classified as Enterprise-class starships.

Dec. 19, 1967 - "The Trouble with Tribbles" aired
* This is the first mention of a Constitution-class starship. There is no canonical connection between the Enterprise and this class of ship.

Sept. 1968 - "The Making of Star Trek" is published
* In this book, the Enterprise is classified as an Enterprise-type starship. A list of sister ships is included in this book.

Sometime in 1968 - The first edition of the "Star Trek Concordance" is published as a private product (fanzine) for fans.
* In this book, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

April 1973 - "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship" is published in the fanzine T-Negative Nr. 27.
* In this article, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship. This is the first time that an effort is made, afaik, to link the registries seen in "Court Martial" to the list of starships first mentioned in "The Making of Star Trek". This is also the first time, afaik, that a connection is made between the phaser diagram first seen in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and the Enterprise.

April 1975 - "Star Trek Blueprints" is published by Ballantine.
* In this set of blueprints, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

November 1, 1975 - The "Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual" is published by Ballantine.
* In this book, the Enterprise is classified as a Constitution-class starship.

June 2, 1977 - The "Star Trek Concordance" is published by Ballantine for a wider audience.

June 4, 1982 - "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" is released.
* In this film, the Enterprise is classified as a Enterprise-class starship.

June 1, 1984 - "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" is released.
* In this film, there is a diagram which classifies the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship. The diagram is either from the Star Trek Blueprints or the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual.

October 5, 1987 - Lt. Cmdr. Data classifies the Enterprise as a Constitution-class starship in the episode "The Naked Now".

Last edited by throwback; May 30 2012 at 06:28 AM.
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