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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Plagues of Night.
Outstanding 58 52.25%
Above Average 35 31.53%
Average 11 9.91%
Below Average 5 4.50%
Poor 2 1.80%
Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 26 2012, 06:58 AM   #91
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Was he married to her yet? No, so then not abandoning family. I should note he took Jake with him and moved back home to his Dad. Case Closed. Unless you want to argue that he is related to the Prophets and therefore running away from them counts as abandonment. So never run away from his family before his job sure.

Now on the issue of the stereotype. First, I don't believe its consistent with the character. Second, I am not sure I agree with u on how stereotypes work. They are broad strokes that paint whole groups of people, the individual details don't matter Stereotypes are not case studies where individual details are relevant. Sure they are individual details are present but when a stereotype gets used no one is thinking about the parts that make the case unique.
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Old May 26 2012, 07:00 AM   #92
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Shon T'Hara wrote: View Post
Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Probably does not help that the only other major black male from the shows in Geordi is incapable of getting laid and having relationships with females.
Mayweather and Tuvok don't count for some reason?
I am talking black male humans. Tuvok is a Vulcan.

As for mayweather, he was a pretty much a token in the show. And I am only talking about the 3 Treks that take place in the same era. TNG, DS9 and Voyager. Not the Prequel Shows.
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Old May 26 2012, 07:23 AM   #93
Skywalker
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Heck, Mayweather was almost a total cipher and even he at least got laid once. Poor Geordi.
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Old May 26 2012, 08:20 AM   #94
Sci
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Was he married to her yet? No, so then not abandoning family.
Well, that depends on whether or not you think that marriage is a prerequisite for one's partner to become your family. I come from a tradition that says that unmarried partners who have been together for a long time and live together are just as much family as those who marry.

By Season 6, Sisko and Kassidy had been together for years -- it was, at the very least, an incredibly insensitive and douchey thing to do, and I'm not sure that leaving her after being married is actually all that much worse. So Sisko does have a history of up and leaving.

Now on the issue of the stereotype. First, I don't believe its consistent with the character.
Is it that it's not consistent, or that it's an interpretation that you disagree with? Do you concede that differing, even contradictory, interpretations can be equally consistent with the canon?

I'm not sure how you can argue it's not consistent. He has a history of wanting to run away; he has a history of running away; he has a history of leaving Kassidy without much notice; he believes strongly that the Prophets can and do give him accurate information on the future; he believes strongly that his continued presence would endanger Kassidy and Rebecca.

It's not necessarily an interpretation I would have gone with, but from where I'm standing, it's a characterization that is consistent with prior characterization.

Second, I am not sure I agree with u on how stereotypes work. They are broad strokes that paint whole groups of people, the individual details don't matter.
Yes, but even those "broad strokes" stereotypes involve something more than just a divorced couple. (After all, nearly half of all marriages end in divorce anyway.) What defines the stereotypes against black fathers are the other factors -- the stereotype that they abandon their wives and children to be promiscuous, or because of drugs; the stereotype that they don't pay child support and don't live up to their responsibilities as parents. The "deadbeat black father" stereotype is about more than just black divorces -- it's about the reasons for and manners of those divorces. It's about maliciously attributing racist beliefs about black male irresponsibility and emotional apathy to all black men who get divorced. Those stereotypes, to put it simply, are not about black divorce; they are about racists saying, "Well, black men don't really love their families the way we white people do."

Sisko's situation in no way resembles those stereotypes, other than in the vaguest of terms as a black man who happens to get divorced. His reasons for that divorce are completely different from the stereotypes of why black men get divorced.
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Old May 26 2012, 08:42 AM   #95
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I am not sure we agree on the definitions of anything we are discussing. I don't agree with your definition of family or stereotypes.

If I don't count her has family then it does not count as dumping family. He ran home and took Jake with him and went to his dad's house. In my book, not dumping family. The Prophets have just as good if not a better argument for being Family. So do I count every time he abandons them as dumping Family?

No leaving her after you have a young daughter and divorcing long distance is what make its a major douche move. Even in your first case, he had bigger things on his plate and his leaving while having an emotional impact was not directly related to her. This time he is dumping her and its all about protecting her so a much different scenario. Where he has a burden to at least do a good job explaining himself and breaking off the relationship if he thinks its needed. Also depending on your definition of not living up to your family it may very well apply in this case scenario.

Although help me with something, Avery Brooks got the series finale rewritten because it hinted at this stereotype. Now do u think him leaving at the end was the right move because if you do then u have to explain what makes these scenarios so different that this one would not be exactly the same type of situation Brooks demanded a rewrite in.

Sure I suppose some might see it as consistent. My point is though that DRG should have been prepared for the firestorm. He did something that there is no possible way he could not know was going to get him heat.

Good Point on Maywheather getting laid.
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Old May 26 2012, 01:09 PM   #96
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci,

Wanting to run away and actually doing it are two different things. In season 6, Ben and Kasidy were not married, nor did they have Rebecca. And it must be noted that Sisko left the station to go back home, to his father, and he brought Jake along. So Sisko left the station true, but he 'ran' back to his family.

In Rough Beasts, not only does he abandon his wife and child, he also abandons Jake and the rest of his family. He leaves them to deal with his father's funeral, which is something that doesn't gibe with Sisko based on how close he and his father were on the show.

Leaving Kasidy bothered me, but also how it was done. He couldn't talk to her about it? I don't think what DRG III did was consistent with the character, no matter what the interpretation. He completely cut Kasidy out of the equation and left some good character work/development on the shelf.

And if he's so potentially dangerous now, so toxic, why go to a starship with hundreds of people on board? Why not just get a ship and travel around yourself or become a hermit somewhere?

And with stereotypes the fine particulars are not looked at. People will look at the surface. Is he with his family or not? Did he leave his family or not? And Sisko left his family. Now, I don't think I would've liked this outcome however DRG III did it because it went so against how Avery Brooks and the show developed Sisko's character, but at least I might have understood it better if he had written some scenes between Sisko and Kasidy where they talked about his decision.

But overall Rough Beasts was a mess, two novels in one, thrown awkwardly together, and a story of this magnitude (same with Spock's) deserved a full novel of its own to delve into all of those issues.
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Old May 26 2012, 03:30 PM   #97
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I would like to point out that, without getting too spoilery, Plagues of Night does deal with the issue of Sisko being a 'deadbeat dad' in a not unpleasant way.
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Old May 26 2012, 04:52 PM   #98
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
I am not sure we agree on the definitions of anything we are discussing. I don't agree with your definition of family or stereotypes.

If I don't count her has family then it does not count as dumping family.
I really think it's an arbitrary distinction. I mean, the difference between the Ben/Kassidy relationship in "Tears of the Prophets" and the Ben/Kassidy relationship when they got married is nine months and a piece of paper. Not exactly a meaningful difference -- abandoning her suddenly, with no warning and no promise of return, in "Tears of the Prophets" is not meaningfully different than leaving her in Rough Beasts of Empire.

So, no, it's not inconsistent with his characterization. He's done this sort of thing before.

He ran home and took Jake with him
Let's be clear: he did not "take" Jake with him. Jake was a grown man who chose to go with him.

This time he is dumping her and its all about protecting her so a much different scenario.
You're right -- he's being considerably less selfish by leaving her because he views that as the only way to protect her, than he was when he just left her just because he wanted to run away from his problems in "Tears of the Prophets."

Although help me with something, Avery Brooks got the series finale rewritten because it hinted at this stereotype.
It would be more accurate to say that he asked for the line about Sisko coming back to be inserted because he felt that Sisko's original fate--being brought to the Wormhole for all eternity--came too close to evoking the stereotype of negligent black father, not because it actually lived up to that stereotype. What Brooks objected to was something even being in the general neighborhood of that stereotype, even if there are major, vital differences that keep it from actually fulfilling that stereotype.

Now do u think him leaving at the end was the right move because if you do then u have to explain what makes these scenarios so different that this one would not be exactly the same type of situation Brooks demanded a rewrite in.
This is where I'm coming from:

I appreciate that some people feel uncomfortable depicting a black father getting a divorce and leaving his wife and daughter for any reason, because for them, it comes too close to the stereotype of the negligent black father. I understand that something can evoke a concept even if it's not the same thing, and I don't disrespect that.

However, I do not think that an author has an obligation to never depict characters doing something that's only vaguely similar to such a stereotype just because some people think it comes too close. As I've said, there are huge differences between Sisko's choices and the actual stereotypes against black fathers. Further, I think there comes a point where it gets a little ridiculous. Are we seriously going to argue that in the 24th Century, that there is no divorce? If we accept that there will be divorce -- and I don't think it's reasonable to say there won't be -- are we therefore going to try to claim that none of the people who get divorced will be black?

Are we seriously going to argue there are no black divorces in the world of Star Trek?

Something can evoke a stereotype even if it's not that stereotype, and we as the audience have to be willing to accept sometimes that maybe a character is a character, and is doing something for a very specific reason, and that this is why it's not stereotypical. As you say, stereotypes aren't about attributing specific motivations to their targets, but DRGIII gave very specific motivations for Sisko's choices.

It's perfectly valid for a creator to decide he doesn't want to risk even inadvertently evoking a stereotype even when it's not truly applicable. It's also perfectly valid for an author to decide that his audience ought to be mature enough to know the difference between a stereotype and a character choice that doesn't fit the stereotype. So what it boils down to is, DRGIII and Brooks have differing creative impulses. That's fine. That's perfectly valid on both ends.

What is not fine, what is not fair and valid, is condemning DRGIII for "perpetuating" a stereotype when Sisko's actions don't actually fulfill that stereotype. There's a huge difference between saying, "I understand that this is different, and that you as an author did not intend this, but this makes me uncomfortable because it makes me think of that stereotype" (which is a perfectly fair reaction) and saying, "You made Sisko in a stereotypical black deadbeat dad" (which is both factually inaccurate and unfair to the author).

Sure I suppose some might see it as consistent.
Then this concession undermines the argument that it is logically inconsistent with what the canon established about Sisko's personality and behavior. If this is a consistent interpretation of the character (even one you disagree with), then it becomes unfair to accuse the author of being "arrogant" or of being inconsistent with the canon.

My point is though that DRG should have been prepared for the firestorm.
There's a big difference between being prepared for fans not enjoying something, and being prepared for fans accusing you of doing something you didn't do.

And even if he were prepared for the level of vitriol he encountered -- at a certain point, why should he keep having to put up with it? It's not like we're entitled to his presence here. He chose to leave because he got tired of some readers being unfair and hostile. Them's the breaks when you're not fair to people sometimes.

DarKush wrote: View Post
Wanting to run away and actually doing it are two different things. In season 6, Ben and Kasidy were not married,
So what? Nine months and a sheet of paper shouldn't make it okay to abandon your partner that way. Yet Sisko did so. It's an established part of his character that sometimes he abandons the people he should not abandon.

Leaving Kasidy bothered me, but also how it was done. He couldn't talk to her about it? I don't think what DRG III did was consistent with the character, no matter what the interpretation.
But it is consistent. He abandoned Kassidy in "Tears of the Prophets" -- cut her off with no warning, no explanation, no promise of a return. Yes, he went back to his father's with Jake, but all that means is that he treated everyone else in Rough Beasts the way he'd previously treated Kassidy. It's completely consistent with his prior behavior.

And if he's so potentially dangerous now, so toxic, why go to a starship with hundreds of people on board?
This is just not paying attention to what he's concerned about.

The novel is very clear: He believes that Kassidy and Rebecca are in danger so long as he is married to and living with Kassidy, because the Prophets told him that he would know "nothing but sorrow," and he believes that sorrow will include their deaths. the Prophets never told him that he's dangerous to everybody everywhere he goes, so he sees no reason to think that.

Now, I don't think I would've liked this outcome however DRG III did it because it went so against how Avery Brooks and the show developed Sisko's character,
I'm sorry -- are you saying that DRGIII depicted Sisko as leaving Kassidy because doing so is something Brooks would have opposed? You make it sound like you think he was deliberately trying to go against what Brooks wanted for the sake of going against what Brooks wanted. Is that what you're trying to say, or am I misreading you?

But overall Rough Beasts was a mess, two novels in one, thrown awkwardly together, and a story of this magnitude (same with Spock's) deserved a full novel of its own to delve into all of those issues.
I think that's a subjective response. I liked the two narratives and how they interacted; you didn't. That's fine.

What's not fine is the hostile environment some posters created, and what's not fine is accusing him of "throwing a hissy fit" when he did no such thing. And as DRGIII said, it wasn't even the reaction to Rough Beasts itself that prompted his choice -- it was the overall, cumulative atmosphere at TrekLit over the course of several months.
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Old May 26 2012, 10:15 PM   #99
DarKush
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I would like to point out that, without getting too spoilery, Plagues of Night does deal with the issue of Sisko being a 'deadbeat dad' in a not unpleasant way.
Thanks. That's good to hear.
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Old May 26 2012, 10:20 PM   #100
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

As I noted the child is the main difference. Which you seemed to ignore.

Also again how about the Prophets, by your argument I could make the same argument that he is screwing family every time he ignores them. They got a claim correct.

Okay Jake made a choice to come.

No he has a burden to explain it to her and divorce and talk out the issues face to face because his justification is protecting her and they have a child. In the first case, he was going home but the main matters he had to deal with was Wormhole closed, A war and one of his best friends dead. None of that was related to or directly concerned her and while it affected her there are clear differences that you seem to want to ignore.

Right and I think he was right there and see no critical difference in these scenarios.

Look DRGIII is a white male a writer and Avery Brooks is a black male who played the character for 7 Seasons. Who do you think I am going to trust and believe has a better understanding of the character and stereotypes about Black Males? DRGIII should defer because the TV Show is the main canon and the books are based on the tv show. Even if he does not defer, based on that he should be well aware of the associated strereotypes and the problems. He walked into and got hit by a firestorm. So yes did some go over the top yes but the Trek Fanbase is no different then any other fanbase and I have seen worse.

I mean really to the lay person. Trek looks like this thanks to lit. Janeway getting fridged, Sisko turned into deadbeat and everything going just right for Good Old Boy Picard.

As for the mini spoiler well it was hard to get much worse. But welcome news none the less.
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Old May 26 2012, 10:41 PM   #101
DarKush
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci,

I think the situations in Season 6 and Rough Beasts are different. Sisko's actions in Rough Beasts are not consistent with Sisko's character based on the Season 6 opener. In Season 6, Sisko left the station because he was grieving over Dax's death. He didn't abandon Kasidy then. He went home. I think its something she would've understood even if we didn't get to see a scene with them discussing it. Further, I didn't see anything in that episode that would've prevented Kasidy from joining him. In Rough Beasts, he leaves her behind without explanation and then files for divorce. He is purposely cutting her out of his life in Rough Beasts and he didn't do that from what we saw in the Season 6 opener.

And I do think that once you marry that is another level of commitment, plus in Season 6 no small child was involved. At the start of Season 6, though Ben and Kasidy had been together for several years they had not taken that step. And Ben took that step in defiance of the Prophets, so it seemed inconsistent that he would not be defiant in this instance, especially without out clear proof that the prophecy of doom will impact his wife and child.

I might be wrong but I got the feeling that Sisko also speculated that the shroud around him had also something to do with his father's death as well, and if that's the case it's possible that DRG III's Sisko is an irrational paranoiac who believes that death will come for anyone close to him. That's what I was aiming at when I wrote that Sisko was potentially toxic and a threat. And I don't recall the Prophets spelling out much of anything in Rough Beasts, just Sisko's speculation of what he thought they meant, so I'm not so certain about how clear things were as you are.

I am not accusing DRG III of purposely going against Avery Brooks. I can't see a reason why he would do such a thing and I'm not inside the man's head. But from what I've seen of Sisko on screen and in many novels and comics, I do believe that DRG III's take on the man is not one I agree with and does not seem consistent with what has come before. I can understand the need to inject drama and tension, but I think it could've been handled in a different way and one that actually made Kasidy more of an active participant than a victim of Sisko's seeming capriciousness.

Though for the sake of argument it wouldn't be the first time that Trek Lit. overturned a decision made on a TV show (Trip on Enterprise) for example. But once again, I'm not accusing DRG III of that. Perhaps he was just trying to make good on the Prophets' threat from the show. I didn't like the way he did it.

As for the hostile environment on the Trek boards, I think using terms like 'throwing a hissy fit' is negative. Even in the Rough Beasts forum you had supporters and detractors, but I would argue, as a detractor, that a lot of the disappointment came from our love of the character of Sisko, and I, for one, didn't like what I saw happening to him. Family had been a big part of his character and I saw that being ripped away from him and I didn't like what DRG III was replacing it with, a craven, morose man on a bland starship.
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Old May 26 2012, 11:32 PM   #102
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Whether you liked the character storylines in the novel or you didn't, Rough Beasts of Empire was the most important novel of the first four books in the Typhon Pact series and pretty essential to the continuing storyline.
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Old May 26 2012, 11:43 PM   #103
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
On top of that, we know from "Emissary" that he had a history of wanting to run away from his problems...
But never, not ever no-how, does he abandon his child; even in the depths of his pre-"Emmisary" haze he stayed with Jake.

Sci wrote: View Post
And unlike the stereotype of the "deadbeat dad," Sisko left Kassidy and Rebecca because he felt he had to do so to protect them, not out of selfishness, drug addiction, or apathy.
You're aware that this excuse is used by actual deadbeat dads too?

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I would like to point out that, without getting too spoilery, Plagues of Night does deal with the issue of Sisko being a 'deadbeat dad' in a not unpleasant way.
THIS. I had a lot of issues with DRG's characterization of Sisko in Rough Beasts and I'm still not the happiest with him in Plagues of Night...
, but things are much much improved. I mean, DRG's a very good writer after all.

Overall, the book is very good, though I'm... really not sure what to make of the ending other than

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Old May 27 2012, 12:08 AM   #104
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Well if that is interesting. I hope your right about not as appears or I feel sorry for DRGIII.
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Old May 27 2012, 12:39 AM   #105
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I have a question, for those you of throwing such a fit over Sisko's actions in RBoE. Would you rather he stayed with Kasidy and Rebecca and then been responsible for their deaths? Because if the Prophets are to be believed, and we've never been given a reason not to believe them, then those are the two options here. Personally, I'm glad they didn't kill them off, I like Kasidy. And that's the thing the RBoE haters are ignoring here, that Sisko is 100% absolutely certain that if he stays with them they will die, and it is very consistent with Sisko's characterization for him to go out of his way to keep his family safe. I also think it's worth pointing out that Sisko had already gone through a ton of crap during the time gap, so by the time Sisko leaves his family he is already not in a good state of mind. I'm gonna say it again, he was doing what he thought he needed to to protect his family, and we know for a fact that Sisko cares about his family and will do whatever is necessary to protect them, and he was not in a good state of mind when he left.
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