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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Plagues of Night.
Outstanding 58 52.25%
Above Average 35 31.53%
Average 11 9.91%
Below Average 5 4.50%
Poor 2 1.80%
Voters: 111. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 26 2012, 03:14 AM   #76
DeVario
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^Very much so. I don't remember any hissy fit at all.
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Old May 26 2012, 03:42 AM   #77
Titus Andronicus
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

DS9forever wrote: View Post
Just my two cents, but if:

I had to skip down the page quickly, but all I'll say is I'm struggling to not click on the spoiler button. I feel like Chekov and Terrell when they held the phasers against Kirk in TWoK!

Tuesday CANNOT get here soon enough, lol.
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Old May 26 2012, 03:56 AM   #78
JD
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BritishSeaPower wrote: View Post
Anyone know why the nook version of this book is listed at 13.99?
Are you sure you're at the right page? The entry on my wishlist, and the page it links to both said $7.99.
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Old May 26 2012, 04:36 AM   #79
WarsTrek1993
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Titus Andronicus wrote: View Post
DS9forever wrote: View Post
Just my two cents, but if:

I had to skip down the page quickly, but all I'll say is I'm struggling to not click on the spoiler button. I feel like Chekov and Terrell when they held the phasers against Kirk in TWoK!

Tuesday CANNOT get here soon enough, lol.
Ah, the dreaded day known as "Tuesday". Of course, we won't get to read this until Tuesday!
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Old May 26 2012, 05:12 AM   #80
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

-Brett- wrote: View Post
My memory is a bit sketchy, but didn't DRGIII throw a childish hissy fit and rage quit the forums rather than listen to the legitimate criticism of Rough Beasts?
DRGIII was listening to legitimate criticism just fine, but he got tired of people essentially throwing hissy fits at him because they disagreed with his creative decisions. And it wasn't just from the reaction to Rough Beasts -- it was, in his view, a long-term problem of the general atmosphere at the TrekLit board. (For instance, some happy asshole actually went and accused him of inserting sex scenes into the Crucible trilogy just to titillate readers and increase sales, and flatly accused DRGIII of lying when he assured him that he wrote the sex scenes in the Crucible books because of his honest assessments of those characters.)

Basically, DRGIII put up with a lot of unearned vitriol and then got tired of it. He didn't throw any hissy fit; he posted that he was leaving and why, and he hasn't shown up since.
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Old May 26 2012, 05:41 AM   #81
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Well I am not sure about the sex scenes one.

But when it comes to Rough Beasts what exactly was he expecting? Any time a major character goes in a controversial direction you can always expect plenty of fan backlash and as an author you got to prepared for that. This is especially true when you operate in a shared universe and our not the sole creator. Not that I think personal attacks are okay but I honestly don't see it as a surprise that the changes he made to Sisko split the fanbase.
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Old May 26 2012, 05:47 AM   #82
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Well I am not sure about the sex scenes one.

But when it comes to Rough Beasts what exactly was he expecting?
First off, DRGIII made it clear that he wasn't leaving because of the reaction to Rough Beasts in and of itself -- he was leaving because he felt that the overall atmosphere here at TrekLit was too negative and hostile.

Secondly -- the man was literally accused of perpetuating stereotypes about black men, and the events of the novel were constantly inaccurately described in order to justify the unrelenting negativity people had towards it. These were not fair critiques because they didn't critique the novel on its own terms, they critiqued the novel on things that did not actually happen. And he was accused of perpetuating racist stereotypes to boot.

So, between posters who accuse him of turning Edith Keeler into a "whore" (that poster's words) and posters who engage in the above behavior, and the generally unrelentingly negative attitudes and hostile comments some people have here in TrekLit? No, I can't blame a writer for feeling as though the atmosphere is unfair and hostile, even if it's only a small minority of posters who are like that. We're not entitled to their presence here, and if they're not having fun or feel that they're being treated unfairly -- well, hey, I can't blame them for leaving. That's not "throwing a hissy fit," that's deciding that you're not going to waste your time with negative, unfair people.
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Old May 26 2012, 05:48 AM   #83
Sci
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

For the record, the thread in which DRGIII posted of his decision to leave the TrekLit forum is here.
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Old May 26 2012, 05:55 AM   #84
-Brett-
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
For the record, the thread in which DRGIII posted of his decision to leave the TrekLit forum is here.
Looks very much like a childish hissy fit to me.
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Old May 26 2012, 06:00 AM   #85
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Looks very much like a childish hissy fit to me.
Then you have an exceedingly liberal definition of "childish hissy fit."
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Old May 26 2012, 06:00 AM   #86
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Look the stereotype is black males abandon their families. It got perpetuated the reasons for why this is different are irrelevant. Not to mention the fact that Avery Brooks got the finale rewritten specifically because of this makes it worse. So in essence DRGIII went against the actor who played Sisko and the writers on the show who reworte a scene specifically because of that. I think its quite obvious that a firestorm would be unleashed.

Probably does not help that the only other major black male from the shows in Geordi is incapable of getting laid and having relationships with females.

Now, I don't approve of personal attacks or the charges of racism but this is was an obvious land mine. Now as I said not a racist but an arrogant move, most definitely but I am sure if he builds Sisko back up to greater heights all will be forgiven. Of course if this book does even more damage well....
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Old May 26 2012, 06:03 AM   #87
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Look the stereotype is black males abandon their families. It got perpetuated the reasons for why this is different are irrelevant. Not to mention the fact that Avery Brooks got the finale rewritten specifically because of this makes it worse. So in essence DRGIII went against the actor who played Sisko and the writers on the show who reworte a scene specifically because of that. I think its quite obvious that a firestorm would be unleashed.

Probably does not help that the only other major black male from the shows in Geordi is incapable of getting laid and having relationships with females.

Now, I don't approve of personal attacks or the charges of racism but this is was an obvious land mine. Now as I said not a racist but an arrogant move,
I'm sorry, but how can we take seriously the assertion that some people in TrekLit were not being overly negative and personally attacking when you call a creative decision with which you disagree (but which was based firmly in events seen in the series, including the Prophets' warning to Sisko that he would know only sorrow if he married Kassidy, and Sisko's established habit of sometimes running away from his problems and the life he's built when he feels overwhelmed) an "arrogant move?"

The guy disagreed with some people about what kind of person Sisko is. That's not arrogance, that's called having an interpretation of a character.
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Old May 26 2012, 06:08 AM   #88
Sjaddix
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

He never ran away from his family before so yeah I disagree. Not to mention the execution of said divorce was pretty darn awful but whatever yeah I view it as an arrogant move. You are clearly a supporter it seems though.

Still the fact remains the move supports the Stereotype regardless of the writer's intentions.
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Old May 26 2012, 06:29 AM   #89
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
He never ran away from his family before
He left Starfleet, his command post, and his partner in "Tears of the Prophets." He gave Kassidy no indication when, or if, he would return; frankly, he's damn lucky she was willing to continue their relationship after what he put her through during the S6/S7 break.

On top of that, we know from "Emissary" that he had a history of wanting to run away from his problems, and that only the intervention of the Prophets helped him face them -- and we know from the prior DS9R novels and from Rough Beasts that he now feels abandoned by those Prophets.

And, further, he honestly believes that his presence in Kassidy's life endangers her and Rebecca.

So, yes, it's fair to question whether or not Sisko is making a good choice. But a lot of the ways Sisko's behavior was characterized -- "he's a deadbeat dad," etc. -- are inaccurate. They're not predicated on an understanding of the character or where he's coming from, why he's doing what he's doing.

so yeah I disagree. Not to mention the execution of said divorce was pretty darn awful but whatever yeah I view it as an arrogant move.
And that kind of personal attack is why the author chose to stop posting here. He made a creative decision you disagreed with based upon a well thought-out interpretation of the character; instead of simply acknowledging that you two view the characters differently, you accuse him of arrogance?

I'm sorry, but that is creating a hostile environment. It's not fair to the author, and I cannot blame the author one bit for not wanting to hang around an Internet forum where people use his creative decisions as an excuse to insult him, even if it's only a handful who do that.

You are clearly a supporter it seems though.
I wouldn't necessarily call myself a supporter. I don't know that I agreed with DRGIII's interpretation of Sisko -- but I also don't disagree with it. I think that a couple of different interpretations of his personality are valid and consistent with both what the canon and the previous Relaunch novels established, and DRGIII's is one of them. It may not have been what I would have done were I the author, but I'm not willing to just condemn his creative decisions without trying to see things from his POV, either.

Still the fact remains the move supports the Stereotype regardless of the writer's intentions.
Let me put it this way: I think it's legitimate to talk about how Sisko's decision to leave Bajor and petition for divorce has some parallels but also some major divergences from the stereotype of the black deadbeat dad. And, remember, there are major differences -- you can't accuse Ben Sisko of not paying his child support, or of doing it because he wanted to bed new women, or of doing it because he's addicted to drugs, or any of the other "bad black father" stereotypes. The context is completely different: Sisko is not an oppressed minority whose family lives in an urban ghetto; he's a citizen of an egalitarian society with a post-scarcity economy in which a standard of living equivalent to what we would today call middle-class comfort is guaranteed for everybody. And unlike the stereotype of the "deadbeat dad," Sisko left Kassidy and Rebecca because he felt he had to do so to protect them, not out of selfishness, drug addiction, or apathy.

Now, if you feel that the decision comes too close to the stereotype even when taking those very major differences into account, that's also valid. I completely understand a POV that says, "We shouldn't even be in the same neighborhood as that stereotype, even if it's consistent with the character's personality and even if it has enough divergences that it's not truly consistent with the stereotype."

But if you're going to say that, you need to structure what you're saying in a respectful way towards the author, to recognize and accept that no such parallels were intended, to acknowledge where the decision diverges from there stereotype, and to see where the author is coming from if he honestly feels it's a creative choice consistent with that specific character's personality.

Some people did do that -- but others didn't, and were more interested in condemning Sisko for being a bad parent than in understanding why he made the choices he did, or why DRGIII made the choices he did. That's not being fair to the author.
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Old May 26 2012, 06:50 AM   #90
Shon T'Hara
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Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
Probably does not help that the only other major black male from the shows in Geordi is incapable of getting laid and having relationships with females.
Mayweather and Tuvok don't count for some reason?
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