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Old May 23 2012, 11:36 PM   #106
exodus
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Before Sisko went to live at the celestial temple, he had only experienced visions and guidance, same as many other people. When Sisko 'died' fighting Dukat, I have no idea what happened to him at that point, whether he bodily taken away or just his consciousness. However, up until that point, we have no reason to belief he was anything other than a human who had regular contact with a non coporial species. Just because his conception was guided by the prophets doesn't make any more or less human than a test tube baby.
..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.
That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?
Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.
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Old May 24 2012, 01:56 AM   #107
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Was the human meat of the mother changed by the prophet is the question.

Didn't Joe say that Mommy stayed for 2 years?

Think about a cake,

You can bake a chocolate cake (shut up.) and it's a chocolate cake.

But if you add bananas to the recipe while cooking it's now a chocolate/banana cake.

However.

If you bake a chocolate cake and then after it's finished cooking, you put banana icing on it, is it a chocolate cake, or a chocolate banana cake?
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Old May 24 2012, 02:47 AM   #108
exodus
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Was the human meat of the mother changed by the prophet is the question.

Didn't Joe say that Mommy stayed for 2 years?

Think about a cake,

You can bake a chocolate cake (shut up.) and it's a chocolate cake.

But if you add bananas to the recipe while cooking it's now a chocolate/banana cake.

However.

If you bake a chocolate cake and then after it's finished cooking, you put banana icing on it, is it a chocolate cake, or a chocolate banana cake?
It's still chocolate banana cake.
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Old May 24 2012, 02:50 AM   #109
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
..but it does because Sisko biological mother was a Prophet, which made Sisko equal to Bajorian Jesus. Sisko like Jesus was part God.
That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?
Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.
Sindatur is right, Sisko was genetically human, not a hybrid. A prophet possessed Sisko's mother and guided her but didn't change her. If sisko had been something other than human, that would have been in his medical records. All they did was maneuver events to ensure his conception.

As fo the Jesus comparison, that's opening a whole other can of worms.
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Old May 24 2012, 02:59 AM   #110
exodus
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
That's not how I remember it? What I remember is Benjamin's mother was a Human Woman, who the Prophet possessed and manipulated into marrying Benjamin's father, so Benjamin would be conceived. When the Prophet left his mother, she "fell out of love" with Benjamin's father and that's when she left the house.

So, perhaps, there is some Prophet in Benjamin, due to his biological mother being possesed by the Prophet during conception, but, the Prophet is not Benjamin's biological mother.

Am I remembering wrong?
Either way, the point was Ben is part Prophet.
Sindatur is right, Sisko was genetically human, not a hybrid. A prophet possessed Sisko's mother and guided her but didn't change her. If sisko had been something other than human, that would have been in his medical records. All they did was maneuver events to ensure his conception.

As fo the Jesus comparison, that's opening a whole other can of worms.
I don't think there's a right or wrong.
It's open to your own personal interpretation like most religious issues. Seriously, how do medical examinations detect Prophet(God) in your DNA? If God could be scientifically proven, then it wouldn't be God.

As far as a can of worms..
So is talking about a DS9 topic in the Voy. forum.
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Old May 24 2012, 05:13 AM   #111
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

^touche.

Just because God/gods haven't been scientifically proven or disproven doesn't mean they can't be. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it is not understandable.
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Old May 24 2012, 05:24 AM   #112
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Do humans have coexisting "overlapping" noncoporial subsistencies?

Wow what a lot of words to say "Soul".

An alien soul in a human body.

Where have I heard that from before?
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Old May 24 2012, 06:08 AM   #113
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

A Prophet Not Born of the Prophets?
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Old May 24 2012, 03:17 PM   #114
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

If anyone was a god-child, it was that thing that Troi virgin-birthed. Not that she hadn't shagged a time or 2.
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Old May 24 2012, 07:24 PM   #115
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
^touche.

Just because God/gods haven't been scientifically proven or disproven doesn't mean they can't be. Just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it is not understandable.
That is not your original stance.
Your statement was God/gods can be scientifically proven via medical records. There was no maybe in your claim.
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Old May 24 2012, 07:52 PM   #116
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

But they are scientifically killable according to DS9 The Assignment.
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Old May 25 2012, 03:30 PM   #117
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Okay, so, I watched Year of Hell, and then skipped forward to episode 6.18, the Lindsay Ballard episode, so, I could see what everyone is talking about. I don't see the problem, or Janeway's inconsistency.

Capt Picard and Annika were assimilated
Neelix and Tuvok were merged
None of them actually died, they were still retrievable
Crusher tried and succeeded in De-assimilating Capt. Picard, and the EMH did likewise with Annika
The EMH was able to de-merge Neelix and Tuvok

In Lindsay Ballard's case, she died on an Away Mission, the EMH was unable to bring her back to life. Voyager had a Funeral Service for her, and buried her in space.
Another species found her corpse, reanimated it, changed it's genetics and placed another personality into it. This should have resulted in Lindsay Ballard personality being lost, but, her memory still partially survived and she returned to Voyager for Sanctuary, and was granted it
The EMH tried to restore Lindsay completely, but, was unsuccessful in removing the Kobari Genetic changes. His partial efforts were less successful than he realized, and the Kobari personality started reasserting itself, and he would have to treat her several times a day, for the rest of her life. Lindsay couldn't handle that, and realized she didn't belong on Voyager, and there was no cure. Lindsay (not the Kobari personality) decided she couldn't live like this, she couldn't even do her job with the EMH providing her treatment several times a day. Lindsay decided to leave Voyager and allow the Kobari personality to take over.

So, Janeway made the same decision for Lindsay, that she did for Neelix, Tuvok and Annika, she gave precedence to the claim on the body to the original personality. Tuvok, Neelix and Annika were all successfully cured (and never died). The attempt to cure Lindsay failed, she was dead, unable to be restored, and the Lindsay personality was fading away, despite the attempts to cure her. Nothing more could be done, she honored Lindsay's request to be allowed to die again and let the Kobari personality take over. if Lindsay hadn't made that decision, the Kobari personality would still have taken over, but, Lindsay wouldn't have a chance to say goodbye to everyone and her Kobari personality would've been stuck on Voyager and felt out of place.
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Last edited by Sindatur; May 25 2012 at 04:37 PM.
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Old May 25 2012, 09:45 PM   #118
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

So, fuck you Harry Kim, but these days, what with Bobby dead, end even though she said "i'm going to use my mom voice" when telling Sam what to do a few months back, Lyndsasy is still way hot enough to be a love interest for one of those Winchester boys on Supernatural... Besides, who doesn't love a woman in uniform (with a gun)?

Actually, her boy came back as a Zombie.

Did she shoot him in the face or did Sam becuase that's something a mother shouldn't have to do?
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Old May 26 2012, 01:52 AM   #119
exodus
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Okay, so, I watched Year of Hell, and then skipped forward to episode 6.18, the Lindsay Ballard episode, so, I could see what everyone is talking about. I don't see the problem, or Janeway's inconsistency.

Capt Picard and Annika were assimilated
Neelix and Tuvok were merged
None of them actually died, they were still retrievable
Crusher tried and succeeded in De-assimilating Capt. Picard, and the EMH did likewise with Annika
The EMH was able to de-merge Neelix and Tuvok

In Lindsay Ballard's case, she died on an Away Mission, the EMH was unable to bring her back to life. Voyager had a Funeral Service for her, and buried her in space.
Another species found her corpse, reanimated it, changed it's genetics and placed another personality into it. This should have resulted in Lindsay Ballard personality being lost, but, her memory still partially survived and she returned to Voyager for Sanctuary, and was granted it
The EMH tried to restore Lindsay completely, but, was unsuccessful in removing the Kobari Genetic changes. His partial efforts were less successful than he realized, and the Kobari personality started reasserting itself, and he would have to treat her several times a day, for the rest of her life. Lindsay couldn't handle that, and realized she didn't belong on Voyager, and there was no cure. Lindsay (not the Kobari personality) decided she couldn't live like this, she couldn't even do her job with the EMH providing her treatment several times a day. Lindsay decided to leave Voyager and allow the Kobari personality to take over.

So, Janeway made the same decision for Lindsay, that she did for Neelix, Tuvok and Annika, she gave precedence to the claim on the body to the original personality. Tuvok, Neelix and Annika were all successfully cured (and never died). The attempt to cure Lindsay failed, she was dead, unable to be restored, and the Lindsay personality was fading away, despite the attempts to cure her. Nothing more could be done, she honored Lindsay's request to be allowed to die again and let the Kobari personality take over. if Lindsay hadn't made that decision, the Kobari personality would still have taken over, but, Lindsay wouldn't have a chance to say goodbye to everyone and her Kobari personality would've been stuck on Voyager and felt out of place.
In a nut shell.
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Old May 26 2012, 03:04 AM   #120
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space—were it not that I have bad dreams?
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