The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet

DavidGutierrez · May 23 2012, 08:27 PM

As I was watching "What You Leave Behind" the other night, I was struck by something: Odo ends the war by being the most Starfleet-esque person in the show! He reaches out and shows compassion for an enemy, conquering the enemy by making her a friend.

If only Starfleet had remembered their principles much earlier, the war might have ended sooner!

I don't mean to be a Dominion apologist, but it takes two to war. Starfleet was always meant to be a force for good (much like America's modern navy, if the ads are to be believed), and the moment they stopped acting like that, they damned themselves to an interminable war.

MacLeod · May 23 2012, 08:38 PM

The Dominion fired the first shot.

When the GQ terminus of the wormhole was first discovered it wasn't yet Dominion in territory. So Starfleet sends ships and more or less claims it.

The Dominion destroys ships, colonies. It doesn't send diplomats to say, "Would you mind respecting our territory."

You can call it provocative, but Starfleet legally mined an area of space it controlled. What did those mines do, close the door to ships from either side. In essence Starfleet was not going to venture into the GQ and Dominion space anymore. Exactly what the Dominion wanted.

You also have to bear in mind the Founders didn't trust solids, so it was likely no matter what they did sooner or later they would have attacked. It was only because of Odo's experiances with solids that he was able to convince the female founder that she could trust solids esp. the Federation to keep the other powers inline.

gazomg · May 23 2012, 08:51 PM

In wartime good people can do bad things

Edit_XYZ · May 23 2012, 08:52 PM

DavidGutierrez wrote:

I don't mean to be a Dominion apologist, but it takes two to war.

No.
It takes ONE to be determined to conquer and to start a war.
And if the other side is stupidly suicidal enough to not defend itself by firing back, it will lose/die.

Starfleet was always meant to be a force for good (much like America's modern navy, if the ads are to be believed), and the moment they stopped acting like that, they damned themselves to an interminable war.

Nonsense.
The moment the Dominion was determined to start the war AND acted to start the war (sending huge fleets through the wormhole/attempting to kill BILLIONS in the bajoran system), war was upon the Federation, regardless of its choices.
Indeed, the Federation's only choices were to fight or surrender to slavery under the Dominion (AND the occasional genocide - as per Weyoun, Earth being first in line to be sterilized).

PS - You make your argument no favors by prasing Odo; his success was possible ONLY because Section31 infected the founders with a virus meant to kill them all.
By sanctioning this meas to end the war, you indirectly sanction actions such as Section 31's.

Deranged Nasat · May 23 2012, 09:07 PM

In regards to war: Sadly, I don't think the Dominion was open to alternatives in the short-term, and the Federation had to acknowledge that. With the Founders, the Federation wasn't facing a political rival with which it had a long if troubled relationship lending itself to a form of understanding, as with Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Tholians, etc. This time, it was facing a fanatical opponent convinced that the only way to keep themselves safe was to aggress against and control others, and who had set up a society dedicated to ensuring they could do just that. Unlike those other antagonist cultures, the Dominion wasn't working within a network of treaties or established borders in its dealings with the UFP, able to be held at bay with diplomacy, political maneuvering, or occasional calculated displays of strength. It was too alien to the established Alpha/Beta Quadrant status quo for the short term, too disruptive to the balance of power in its blatant aggression and too powerful and driven to sit back and let the Federation be.

I think it's worth noting that when the Dominion finally moved in force to the Alpha Quadrant, Starfleet was willing to collapse the wormhole (presumably running the risk of alienating Bajor) as an alternative to conflict. They made every effort to avoid war; it's just that Changeling Bashir sabotaged that effort. Even in the aftermath, the Federation didn't attack Cardassian space right away. Only when they felt they could no longer ignore the obvious - that the Dominion was going to keep sending ships and personnel through until Cardassia was one big Dominion war machine, and then they'd pretty much inevitably use it to launch an invasion of other Alpha Quadrant nations - did the Federation act; by mining the wormhole, not attacking directly. Only when it then became clear the Dominion would attack DS9 did Starfleet launch an attack on the Torros shipyards. I don't think the Federation was ever presented as eager to fight a war; they just happened to find themselves in a situation they hadn't been in before, namely threatened by an invading force of comparable or greater power that was fanatically dedicated to imposing its own order on them.

I agree that Odo's compassionate gesture was more in keeping with the Federation's ideals than some of their own actions during the conflict, but he has a strong advantage here; he's a changeling, and so exempt from the deep, unquestioning distrust the Founders have for solids. Would the Founders have been willing to stand down and put their faith in the Alpha Quadrant powers if anyone but Odo were to make the gesture? And for his part, Odo tried to demonstrate that the Federation wouldn't be brutal or malicious in victory, and on the whole wished the Dominion no harm. So he was making a case for the Federation; even if they faltered somewhat during the war (and that's an inevitability of war, that it challenges personal or national ethics), they at least succeeded in showing the one person who stood a chance of "reaching" the Founder Leader that they were a principled and benevolent people. At least, Odo was willing to trust in the Federation to be the society he knew it tried to be. As he told the Founder Leader, he'd be the first to acknowledge the Federation's flaws....but a desire for conquest isn't one of them.

For a Founder to place her people's fate in solid hands must have been the hardest decision in Dominion history. Odo certainly showed the best of himself there, but I think it's important to acknowledge that Odo was able to succeed in part because the Federation had shown him enough of themselves that he could trust them with his people.

Bry_Sinclair · May 23 2012, 09:11 PM

Its war, of course its going to bring out the worst in people. The humans in Star Trek are still just that, who will fall back on their instincts and history. Add to that mix Andorians, Tellarite, Zaldans and dozens of other species and you get a wide assortment of people who, though ultimately peace-loving, are unwilling to let all they have and believe in be destroyed.

In "The Siege of AR-558", Quark tells Nog that take away creature comforts and humans can become as ruthless as any Klingon and its true. Most people will fight to protect themselves and/or others, or the beliefs they hold in high regard (even Vulcans understand there is a logical use for force/violence), and that is what Starfleet is expected to do.

Had the Dominion War taken place on TNG, there might have been a greater focus on trying to establish peace, as Picard was first and foremost a diplomat and negotiator. Sisko is a fighter, so it makes sense to focus on the strategy and tactics on DS9.

But that's just my thoughts.

sonak · May 23 2012, 09:20 PM

it doesn't take two to start a war. See WWII for example.

I don't see what the UFP is supposed to do here if not fight other than destroy the wormhole(which would be a disaster for Bajor) or just surrender.

The Dominion were supremacist conquerors. Once the wormhole was discovered, conflict with them was pretty close to inevitable.

Also, it wasn't Odo's "compassion" that ended the war, it was that he was a changeling and his offer to provide the cure.

Photon · May 24 2012, 12:37 AM

DavidGutierrez wrote:

As I was watching "What You Leave Behind" the other night, I was struck by something: Odo ends the war by being the most Starfleet-esque person in the show! He reaches out and shows compassion for an enemy, conquering the enemy by making her a friend.

If only Starfleet had remembered their principles much earlier, the war might have ended sooner!

I don't mean to be a Dominion apologist, but it takes two to war. Starfleet was always meant to be a force for good (much like America's modern navy, if the ads are to be believed), and the moment they stopped acting like that, they damned themselves to an interminable war.

I think I'm gonna vomit. What are you kind UN peacenik? Lets hold hands w/the Jem'Hadar and sing Kumbahya and eat berries and leechy nuts.
War is hell. Take your girl undies off and put your boy's on and open your eyes.

Jono · May 24 2012, 04:03 AM

DavidGutierrez wrote:

If only Starfleet had remembered their principles much earlier, the war might have ended sooner!

That's true, but the victor would have been the Dominion. The true turning point from defeat towards victory was Sisko putting aside his principles to get the Romulans into the war. After that the Dominion was on the slide.

billcosby · May 24 2012, 04:13 AM

I'm sure it was the aim of the writers to do just that.
It made for terrific storytelling. DS9 stands as the greatest "dark chapter" of Trek as a whole.

DeganTNG · May 24 2012, 05:21 AM

One thing that I would have liked in the show was reaction shots from the various other characters in the saga. For instance several times during the series after major turning points I would have loved a cameo of the Enterprise with Picard and crew commenting on say Betazed being captured or Earth being attacked. Also it was a shame that Kai Wynn didn't have an appearance while the station was occupied in season 6.

It might be asking too much, but for me the crew of the Enterprise was the heroes and everyone else was great, but I just wanted them to play a part.

DeganTNG · May 24 2012, 05:24 AM

Also I know that's how the writers went with DS9, but I think The Next Generation would have solved the Dominion War in one episode. That was their style after all. Probably through diplomacy or speechification.

Sjaddix · May 24 2012, 06:55 AM

Not really neogating failed against the Borg. Still TNG was pretty much all one and dones with an occasional two parter here and there.

Also how in the world was the Enterpirse heroes in this war or do you mean in general. Because they are pretty irrelevant to the war effort retcons aside.

MatthiasRussell · May 24 2012, 03:08 PM

Starfleet could have gotten much worse. At their worst in the Dominon War, Starfleet was still better than the crew of Battlestar Galactica (nu BSG) at their best.

War is hell, and you can't fight a war without getting your face dirty and innocent blood on your hands. The characters of DS9 didn't come out of the war hardened and heartless.

Ezri D · May 24 2012, 03:29 PM

Deep Space 9 was part of the 1990's, and during that time people was thinking of the dark side of science and meeting strange new people. The only way to get dark, was to have a war. Deep Space 9 was not about having cookies and milk parties.

It was working with a space station that was not really federation. It was a part of space that was not really controled by the federation. It was about the political conflict dealing with political interests.

May 23 2012, 08:27 PM	#1
DavidGutierrez Lieutenant Junior Grade Location: Texas	The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet As I was watching "What You Leave Behind" the other night, I was struck by something: Odo ends the war by being the most Starfleet-esque person in the show! He reaches out and shows compassion for an enemy, conquering the enemy by making her a friend. If only Starfleet had remembered their principles much earlier, the war might have ended sooner! I don't mean to be a Dominion apologist, but it takes two to war. Starfleet was always meant to be a force for good (much like America's modern navy, if the ads are to be believed), and the moment they stopped acting like that, they damned themselves to an interminable war. __________________ For the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky...

May 23 2012, 08:38 PM	#2
MacLeod Vice Admiral Location: Great Britain	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet The Dominion fired the first shot. When the GQ terminus of the wormhole was first discovered it wasn't yet Dominion in territory. So Starfleet sends ships and more or less claims it. The Dominion destroys ships, colonies. It doesn't send diplomats to say, "Would you mind respecting our territory." You can call it provocative, but Starfleet legally mined an area of space it controlled. What did those mines do, close the door to ships from either side. In essence Starfleet was not going to venture into the GQ and Dominion space anymore. Exactly what the Dominion wanted. You also have to bear in mind the Founders didn't trust solids, so it was likely no matter what they did sooner or later they would have attacked. It was only because of Odo's experiances with solids that he was able to convince the female founder that she could trust solids esp. the Federation to keep the other powers inline. __________________ On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.

May 23 2012, 08:51 PM	#3
gazomg Commander Location: The Peoples Republic of Cork	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet In wartime good people can do bad things __________________ ---------------------------------------- http://terryfarrell.webs.com/ ----------------------------------------

May 23 2012, 09:07 PM	#5
Deranged Nasat Vice Admiral Location: Warped off into the sunset. With fond memories of most of you, and not a little sorrow at leaving.	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet In regards to war: Sadly, I don't think the Dominion was open to alternatives in the short-term, and the Federation had to acknowledge that. With the Founders, the Federation wasn't facing a political rival with which it had a long if troubled relationship lending itself to a form of understanding, as with Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Tholians, etc. This time, it was facing a fanatical opponent convinced that the only way to keep themselves safe was to aggress against and control others, and who had set up a society dedicated to ensuring they could do just that. Unlike those other antagonist cultures, the Dominion wasn't working within a network of treaties or established borders in its dealings with the UFP, able to be held at bay with diplomacy, political maneuvering, or occasional calculated displays of strength. It was too alien to the established Alpha/Beta Quadrant status quo for the short term, too disruptive to the balance of power in its blatant aggression and too powerful and driven to sit back and let the Federation be. I think it's worth noting that when the Dominion finally moved in force to the Alpha Quadrant, Starfleet was willing to collapse the wormhole (presumably running the risk of alienating Bajor) as an alternative to conflict. They made every effort to avoid war; it's just that Changeling Bashir sabotaged that effort. Even in the aftermath, the Federation didn't attack Cardassian space right away. Only when they felt they could no longer ignore the obvious - that the Dominion was going to keep sending ships and personnel through until Cardassia was one big Dominion war machine, and then they'd pretty much inevitably use it to launch an invasion of other Alpha Quadrant nations - did the Federation act; by mining the wormhole, not attacking directly. Only when it then became clear the Dominion would attack DS9 did Starfleet launch an attack on the Torros shipyards. I don't think the Federation was ever presented as eager to fight a war; they just happened to find themselves in a situation they hadn't been in before, namely threatened by an invading force of comparable or greater power that was fanatically dedicated to imposing its own order on them. I agree that Odo's compassionate gesture was more in keeping with the Federation's ideals than some of their own actions during the conflict, but he has a strong advantage here; he's a changeling, and so exempt from the deep, unquestioning distrust the Founders have for solids. Would the Founders have been willing to stand down and put their faith in the Alpha Quadrant powers if anyone but Odo were to make the gesture? And for his part, Odo tried to demonstrate that the Federation wouldn't be brutal or malicious in victory, and on the whole wished the Dominion no harm. So he was making a case for the Federation; even if they faltered somewhat during the war (and that's an inevitability of war, that it challenges personal or national ethics), they at least succeeded in showing the one person who stood a chance of "reaching" the Founder Leader that they were a principled and benevolent people. At least, Odo was willing to trust in the Federation to be the society he knew it tried to be. As he told the Founder Leader, he'd be the first to acknowledge the Federation's flaws....but a desire for conquest isn't one of them. For a Founder to place her people's fate in solid hands must have been the hardest decision in Dominion history. Odo certainly showed the best of himself there, but I think it's important to acknowledge that Odo was able to succeed in part because the Federation had shown him enough of themselves that he could trust them with his people. __________________ We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.

May 23 2012, 09:11 PM	#6
Bry_Sinclair Commodore Location: Along the border of Talarian space	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet Its war, of course its going to bring out the worst in people. The humans in Star Trek are still just that, who will fall back on their instincts and history. Add to that mix Andorians, Tellarite, Zaldans and dozens of other species and you get a wide assortment of people who, though ultimately peace-loving, are unwilling to let all they have and believe in be destroyed. In "The Siege of AR-558", Quark tells Nog that take away creature comforts and humans can become as ruthless as any Klingon and its true. Most people will fight to protect themselves and/or others, or the beliefs they hold in high regard (even Vulcans understand there is a logical use for force/violence), and that is what Starfleet is expected to do. Had the Dominion War taken place on TNG, there might have been a greater focus on trying to establish peace, as Picard was first and foremost a diplomat and negotiator. Sisko is a fighter, so it makes sense to focus on the strategy and tactics on DS9. But that's just my thoughts. __________________ Avatar: Captain Hilgrat Ja-Inrosh (deceased), Commanding Officer, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)

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May 23 2012, 09:20 PM	#7
sonak Rear Admiral Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet it doesn't take two to start a war. See WWII for example. I don't see what the UFP is supposed to do here if not fight other than destroy the wormhole(which would be a disaster for Bajor) or just surrender. The Dominion were supremacist conquerors. Once the wormhole was discovered, conflict with them was pretty close to inevitable. Also, it wasn't Odo's "compassion" that ended the war, it was that he was a changeling and his offer to provide the cure.

May 24 2012, 04:13 AM	#10
billcosby Commodore Location: billcosby	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet I'm sure it was the aim of the writers to do just that. It made for terrific storytelling. DS9 stands as the greatest "dark chapter" of Trek as a whole. __________________ My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion: http://billcosbytrekccg.blogspot.com/

May 24 2012, 05:21 AM	#11
DeganTNG Lieutenant Commander Location: Birmingham, Al, USA	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet One thing that I would have liked in the show was reaction shots from the various other characters in the saga. For instance several times during the series after major turning points I would have loved a cameo of the Enterprise with Picard and crew commenting on say Betazed being captured or Earth being attacked. Also it was a shame that Kai Wynn didn't have an appearance while the station was occupied in season 6. It might be asking too much, but for me the crew of the Enterprise was the heroes and everyone else was great, but I just wanted them to play a part. __________________ Let's make sure history never forgets the name, Enterprise.

May 24 2012, 05:24 AM	#12
DeganTNG Lieutenant Commander Location: Birmingham, Al, USA	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet Also I know that's how the writers went with DS9, but I think The Next Generation would have solved the Dominion War in one episode. That was their style after all. Probably through diplomacy or speechification. __________________ Let's make sure history never forgets the name, Enterprise.

May 24 2012, 06:55 AM	#13
Sjaddix Lieutenant Commander	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet Not really neogating failed against the Borg. Still TNG was pretty much all one and dones with an occasional two parter here and there. Also how in the world was the Enterpirse heroes in this war or do you mean in general. Because they are pretty irrelevant to the war effort retcons aside.

May 24 2012, 03:08 PM	#14
MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Location: Seattle	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet Starfleet could have gotten much worse. At their worst in the Dominon War, Starfleet was still better than the crew of Battlestar Galactica (nu BSG) at their best. War is hell, and you can't fight a war without getting your face dirty and innocent blood on your hands. The characters of DS9 didn't come out of the war hardened and heartless. __________________ "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"

May 24 2012, 03:29 PM	#15
Ezri D Lieutenant	Re: The Dominion War brought out the worst in Starfleet Deep Space 9 was part of the 1990's, and during that time people was thinking of the dark side of science and meeting strange new people. The only way to get dark, was to have a war. Deep Space 9 was not about having cookies and milk parties. It was working with a space station that was not really federation. It was a part of space that was not really controled by the federation. It was about the political conflict dealing with political interests.