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Old May 21 2012, 11:13 PM   #76
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.
I would actually say taking Seven to resatore Annika was wrong. But there are some differences. Seven had no personality; she was a vessel for the collective mind of the Borg. Tuvix was a definitive seperate person. Seven was a captured and aggressive enemy combatant whereas Tuvix was a friend. I would say once Seven was captured and the Borg defeated, she SHOULD have been left off some where for the Borg to pick up.

But with the Borg there are different perspectives. In the Seven situation, I would have sent her back to the Borg. In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.


My original issue for this thread, though, is does Voyager/Janeway have a double standard for the rights of the individual vs the will/good of the majority.
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Old May 21 2012, 11:30 PM   #77
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.
So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?
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Old May 21 2012, 11:36 PM   #78
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

So you are saying that he's not entitled to an impartial hearing? And besides it was only until they could make contact with starfleet.

Which would have been in around three years.

According to TNG's "Where no one has gone before" a subspace mesage would take 52 years to travel the 2.7million light years. Dialouge indicates that they fully expected the Federation to recieve it. The speed works out as roughly as 52 000ly per year.
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Old May 21 2012, 11:39 PM   #79
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.
I would actually say taking Seven to resatore Annika was wrong. But there are some differences. Seven had no personality; she was a vessel for the collective mind of the Borg. Tuvix was a definitive seperate person. Seven was a captured and aggressive enemy combatant whereas Tuvix was a friend. I would say once Seven was captured and the Borg defeated, she SHOULD have been left off some where for the Borg to pick up.

But with the Borg there are different perspectives. In the Seven situation, I would have sent her back to the Borg. In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.


My original issue for this thread, though, is does Voyager/Janeway have a double standard for the rights of the individual vs the will/good of the majority.
For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency
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Old May 21 2012, 11:41 PM   #80
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

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So you are saying that he's not entitled to an impartial hearing?
Nope, not even close.
And besides it was only until they could make contact with starfleet.

Which would have been in around three years.
..and you find putting someone in stasis for even that long is humane?
Janeway wasn't even that cruel to Suder.
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Old May 22 2012, 12:21 AM   #81
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.
So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?
For one, Picard wasn't killed and then his parts used to create a new being. In my mind, after the patterns of Neelix and Tuvok failed to rematerialize and were lost, they were dead. If someone finds a way to restore them, great, I'll try it, but not at the expense of the new sentient life that was created. Furthermore, after weeks passed, they SHOULD have been declared dead, if not lost like all other crewman whose signals have been lost over the past couple hundred years.

To me, that is the main difference between what happens to assimilated crewmen and those lost in transporter accidents. Assimilated being were never really killed, they were brainwashed and enslaved. However, after all the years that Annika was gone, I would consider her dead as she was more Borg than human.

On the flip side, I would want a court martial held for Picard due to his action in FC killing a number of his own crewman, especially the ones who weren't fully assimilated yet.
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Old May 22 2012, 12:41 AM   #82
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency
But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.
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Old May 22 2012, 12:44 AM   #83
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_...ithin_(episode))
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Old May 22 2012, 01:07 AM   #84
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

I'm not sure how "The Enemy Within" is analogous given that in that case both halves would have died without each other.
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Old May 22 2012, 02:01 AM   #85
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
In the Locutus situation, I would have tried to restore Picard.
So why is it wrong to bring back Tuvok and Neelix?
doesn't Locutus represent new life the same as Tuvix?
Isn't restoring Picard killing Locutus just to restore the being he used to be?
For one, Picard wasn't killed and then his parts used to create a new being. In my mind, after the patterns of Neelix and Tuvok failed to rematerialize and were lost, they were dead. If someone finds a way to restore them, great, I'll try it, but not at the expense of the new sentient life that was created. Furthermore, after weeks passed, they SHOULD have been declared dead, if not lost like all other crewman whose signals have been lost over the past couple hundred years.

To me, that is the main difference between what happens to assimilated crewmen and those lost in transporter accidents. Assimilated being were never really killed, they were brainwashed and enslaved. However, after all the years that Annika was gone, I would consider her dead as she was more Borg than human.

On the flip side, I would want a court martial held for Picard due to his action in FC killing a number of his own crewman, especially the ones who weren't fully assimilated yet.
If Borg are part machine/part organic, then Picards parts are being used to create a new being. How could you be willingly try a way to restore them and not take Tuvix life? That's impossible. If Tuvix exists, then so do the patterns of Tuvok and Neelix.
If over time they both are considered dead, then I still
don't see the difference.

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))
Wasn't Sim a complexly different genus and species?
He wasn't even humanoid, he was a bug mimicing a human.
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Old May 22 2012, 07:20 AM   #86
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

I'm not sure we're in a position to judge whether a lifeform merits existence on the grounds that it's only "mimicing" a human.

Data and the EMH only mimic humans, but don't have a right to exist?
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Old May 22 2012, 01:17 PM   #87
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency
But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.
I have clearly stated my judgement is based upon the episodes I've seen (Up to 4.06 over the last couple weeks. I've seen scattered episodes later during first run, but, don't remember details). I believe I'm perfectly qualified to properly judge her consistency in this area, up to that point.
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Old May 22 2012, 05:49 PM   #88
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
For me, these two situations confirm to me Janeway is consistent, she chooses to restore the original (and salvageable) owners of the bodies. I can't speak to the S6 Ballard case, as I'm only jsut beginning S4 at this point, but, 7of9 and Tuvix, I think she showed consistency
But the Ballard case shows her to be inconsistent with her principle of the original life form taking precidence. Until you're familiar with that situation, you can't properly judge Janeway on this issue.
I have clearly stated my judgement is based upon the episodes I've seen (Up to 4.06 over the last couple weeks. I've seen scattered episodes later during first run, but, don't remember details). I believe I'm perfectly qualified to properly judge her consistency in this area, up to that point.
Yes, I understand that. However, I'm just saying you can't make a complete and impartial judgement without ALL the evidence. I will be curious to see how you view that episode after having had this discussion.
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Old May 22 2012, 05:50 PM   #89
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how "The Enemy Within" is analogous given that in that case both halves would have died without each other.
I feel the same way. The 2 were going to die anyways. The 2 were also copies of James Kirk as opposed to a new being but they were still new sentient lives with rights to choose for themselves.

Not all of us may agree on how that matter was handled.
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Old May 22 2012, 05:54 PM   #90
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I'll throw in some episodes from other series which some may use to weigh in whether Janeway repected the rights of the individual in keeping with Trek values. I'm curious to see how people think these hold weight for this discussion.

ENT: Similitude (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Similitude_(episode))

TOS: The Enemy Within (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(episode))
Wasn't Sim a complexly different genus and species?
He wasn't even humanoid, he was a bug mimicing a human.
Sim was genetically identical to Trip and had his personality and memories. Once the creature was injected with Tripp's DNA it became an identical clone. My point was that Sim didn't want to die but was forced into it.

Big differences to me are that Sim was created with the sole intent of saving the life of his originator, Sim had only a few days to live anyways, and that Trip wasnt dead yet.

However, as a sentient being and someone who never swore an oath to Starfleet, Sim should have had the right to choose for himself. Also, Archer should never have authorized the procedure in my opinion.
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