RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,909
Posts: 5,477,911
Members: 25,052
Currently online: 496
Newest member: vova123

TrekToday headlines

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Trek Actors In War Of The Worlds Fundraiser
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25

Star Trek: The Next Generation Gag Reel Tease
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Shatner In Haven
By: T'Bonz on Nov 24

Retro Review: Covenant
By: Michelle on Nov 22

Two Official Starships Collection Previews
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21

Saldana: Women Issues In Hollywood
By: T'Bonz on Nov 21


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 21 2012, 01:32 AM   #61
Unicron
Continuity Spackle
 
Unicron's Avatar
 
Location: The mockingjay soars
Send a message via ICQ to Unicron
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post

BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?
IIRC - and my memory is certainly not perfect - Ballard's situation isn't quite comparable to Tuvix, nor is Quinn's although they all do share some common factors and difficult choices. Ballard was KIA on a mission and was later restored to life by an alien race who resurrect dead aliens as one means of propagating their species, and who gave her body altered DNA and memories.

It's made clear in the episode that a lot of Lyndsay's original personality remained intact and that she felt she still belonged with Voyager, but she also had trouble remembering aspects of her human life and doing activities like eating Earth food, because her body reacted differently to it. And when her "adopted" family came looking for her and were perfectly willing to fight Voyager in an attempt to "rescue" Ballard, she finally elected to return with them on account of her partially confused memories and a desire to protect her former crewmates, even if she didn't like the idea. But it wasn't a matter of Janeway arbitrarily ruling against the possibility of her being welcomed back, or anyone else in the crew. Quite the opposite. Part of Ballard also felt at home with the Kobali and her "other" family.

To be fair, in terms of writing, there are a number of issues with "Ashes to Ashes" (which was a later ep, S6). The quandary facing Ballard is rather interesting IMO, but some elements of the story seem a bit too rushed in execution to work as well as they could.
__________________

"If you think you're brave enough to walk the path of honor, then follow me into the dragon's den."


Knight Exemplar
Unicron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 01:26 PM   #62
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 03:52 PM   #63
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Well, I do think there's a difference in that Tuvix was an accidental creation whereas the Borg's creation of Seven was a deliberate imposition upon the original personality, but I'd also point out that I do have some issues with how Janeway ignored Seven's request to exist in the manner she wished to (at the time). I suppose a case could be made that she wasn't mentally competent, though that raises a whole different set of issues. In any case, unlike Hugh, Seven did clearly state that she did not wish to be de-assimilated.

If killing a child would bring back two heroes on the scale of, say, Captain America, do we do it? If we don't do it, we're effectively killing those two Captain Americas? Rhetorical.

SG-1 covered these sorts of issues rather well in "Pretense", though in that case preserving the imposed personality (more or less) was an option.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 04:01 PM   #64
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

The Borg "Seven of Nine" was the result of a personality rape of Annika Hansen. She was also enslaved to a Borg collective and didn't have the ability to make a competent choice as a free individual.


Had "Locutus of Borg" expressed opposition to being restored to Picard would Crusher and Riker have taken that seriously?
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 04:13 PM   #65
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

sonak wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, I watched Scorpion and The Gift yesterday, and I can't see how anyone coming down of the side of restoring Tuvok and Neelix' lives means murdering Tuvix and is therefore wrong, yet, thinks it was right to murder Seven, in order to restore Annika to life?

Janeway forced the change on Seven, kept her imprisoned and denied her choice, refused to allow her to return to the Borg. Restoring Annika was a far more aggressive action, and Seven had existed for 20 years, Tuvix only for a few weeks (Maybe a couple months?). 7 of 9 had no more choice in being born than Tuvix did, how can you honestly ignore this in her case, but, use it to deride Tuvix' death?

I can't fathom how anyone can come down on opposite sides in both situations. I believe both were the right decision, and it's hypocritical to be in favor of one, but, not the other.

The Borg "Seven of Nine" was the result of a personality rape of Annika Hansen. She was also enslaved to a Borg collective and didn't have the ability to make a competent choice as a free individual.


Had "Locutus of Borg" expressed opposition to being restored to Picard would Crusher and Riker have taken that seriously?
I'm on the side of saying it was right to restore Annika, I just don't see how freeing Tuvok and Neelix is any different. Seven of Nine stole Annika's life, through no choice of her own, and was killed to restore Annika. Tuvix stole Neelix and Tuvok's lives, through no choice of his own and was killed to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Both Annika (through her parents) and Tuvok/Neelix took a gamble (Neelix and Tuvok via using the transporter, and a near impossible accident took place, replacing them with Tuvix)(Annika's parents chose to go into unexplored space, where anything was possible and likely to happen and Annika was replaced with Seven of Nine)
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 04:23 PM   #66
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Upon being liberated from the Borg, Annika wanted to return. Now you could argue at that time she wasn't in a fit mental state to make an informed choice. If 4 years later, she made the choice, then it might be considered an informed choice. Would Janeway have the right then to stop her?

Tuvix appeared to be making an informed choice.

It wasn't even an issue Janeway should have delt with, she could have easily put him into stasis until such time as an uninvested party could rule on the dilema.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 05:07 PM   #67
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Upon being liberated from the Borg, Annika wanted to return. Now you could argue at that time she wasn't in a fit mental state to make an informed choice. If 4 years later, she made the choice, then it might be considered an informed choice. Would Janeway have the right then to stop her?

Tuvix appeared to be making an informed choice.

It wasn't even an issue Janeway should have delt with, she could have easily put him into stasis until such time as an uninvested party could rule on the dilema.
So, you're saying Tuvix should've been put in stasis for 70 years?
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 05:27 PM   #68
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 09:15 PM   #69
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.
The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:17 PM   #70
JanewayRulz!
Vice Admiral
 
JanewayRulz!'s Avatar
 
Location: North America
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

^^ Yes, this is certainly Voyager's ethical Kobayashi Maru.
__________________
"But life is a battle: may we all be enabled to fight it well!" Charlotte Bronte
JanewayRulz! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:24 PM   #71
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

The episode would have been better with characters who weren't named in the credits, thus likely to return by episode's end. Janeway's choice is rather fore-ordained by that.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:31 PM   #72
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.
The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.
Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:48 PM   #73
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Why not in the intrest of a fair trial? Janeway wasn't exactly impartial in the matter being discussed.
The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.
Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.
There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:55 PM   #74
Sindatur
Vice Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
The trial will end up the same as the debate we're having here, inconclusive. Same as "Measure of Man" and "Author, Author". Sonak is correct in saying this was a no win situation, which it is. What is right or wrong is up to each individual watching.
Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.
There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?
Look back a few posts, he's willing to put Tuvix into stasis for the whole 70 year long trip home in order for him to get a fair trial
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 21 2012, 10:58 PM   #75
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

Yes but in both those instances, the party making the ruling wasn't invested in the outcome.

What Janeway did would be no different if you sat as Judge as someone who had wronged you.

Janeway in her ruling possibly set a dangerous precedent.
There was nobody on Voyager that could have been impartial. How could you expect a fair trial?
Look back a few posts, he's willing to put Tuvix into stasis for the whole 70 year long trip home in order for him to get a fair trial
The conclusion: 3 dead souls

End of debate.
Seriously, I don't see how someone can argue it's inhumane to "murder" one person for the sake of two but it isn't inhumane to put someone in stasis for 70+ years?
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
janeway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:30 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.