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Old May 19 2012, 03:28 AM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

And as for the Constellation: Just because it LOOKS like a Connie doesn't mean it is one. I'm sure there have been many examples (both IRL and in Trek) where two ship classes might look outwardly the same yet actually be different classes internally.
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Old May 19 2012, 03:28 AM   #17
Tribble Herder
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

It is mention on Space Seed that the Enterprise is a Constitution class starship.

BZZZZZT!
I'm sorry, that's incorrect, you lose your chance for the new car.

The diagram that Greg Jein cited in that T-Negative issue all those years ago was erroneously attributed to "Space Seed" when it actually appeared in "The Trouble With Tribbles" (it was the technical journal that Scotty is looking at in the rec room when Kirk and Spock walk in). As for onscreen dialogue, the Enterprise's class isn't "mentioned" on screen until TNG's "Relics".
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Old May 19 2012, 03:30 AM   #18
Tribble Herder
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
And as for the Constellation: Just because it LOOKS like a Connie doesn't mean it is one. I'm sure there have been many examples (both IRL and in Trek) where two ship classes might look outwardly the same yet actually be different classes internally.
The example of aircraft carriers has been mentioned more than once.
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Old May 19 2012, 07:03 AM   #19
blssdwlf
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Also "The Naked Now":
PICARD: The Constitution class Enterprise, Captain James T. Kirk commanding.
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Old May 19 2012, 09:28 AM   #20
Kenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

"Stay on topic. Stay on topic."

We're drifting into subjects that have been discussed on a number of other threads and other forums. And while interesting, these fan ruminations are not germane to the question I'm asking.

Which is: I want to know what primary source material we have regarding the history of the studio model of the Constellation and it's registry number.

As far as I can tell, we have only three pieces of primary source material related to the Constellation model:

1) from dialogue on screen, we know that the Constellation is described as having the configuration of a "starship".

2) from photographs of the model used to represent this starship called the Constellation, we know that it was built from an AMT model kit.

3) from photographs of the model, we know that the registry of the Constellation is NCC-1017.

Regarding starship registries during TOS, there are also two supplemental pieces of primary source material that are relevant to the Constellation:

1) from a production drawing of the Enterprise, we know that Matt Jefferies proposed a registry system in the 1700's for ships like the Enterprise.

2) from the episode "Court-Martial", there are eleven other "star ship" registries we know: one in the 1300's, several in the 1600's, several in the 1700's, and one or two in the 1800's.

So regarding the Constellation's registry, that's all we can know with certainty at this point, right? Everything else is just hypothesis and conjecture.

But I find it hard to believe that in 30+ years, no one ever asked Matt Jefferies about this model and its unusual registry.

So I'm asking the readers of this forum if they know of any interviews with Mr. Jefferies, any production memos, any notes from the special effects house, any production sketches, any annotated scripts, or any other primary source material with which we can add to our knowledge of the model of the Constellation built in 1967, particularly in regard to the registry number of the ship.

That's all I want to know.
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Old May 19 2012, 12:22 PM   #21
Maurice
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Does the shooting script provide any clues?
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Old May 19 2012, 01:51 PM   #22
Dukhat
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

First of all, do you know for a fact that Jeffries actually built the Constellation? That seems to be the crux of your argument. Because if he didn't and, say, some production flunky did, then there probably would have been no rationale at all for the registry number. And if Jeffries saw the model and had any problem whatsoever with the number, the decal could have been removed and another one added in its place.

I don't see why anyone would have had any problem with the registry just as it was seen on screen.
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Old May 19 2012, 02:34 PM   #23
Albertese
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

This is purely my own conjecture, but I would speculate that that actual model would have been built by whoever did the photography (Norway Company if memory serves...) and therefore not by Jefferies himself. He may have never even seen it. But i don't know any of that for a fact.

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Old May 19 2012, 03:14 PM   #24
Kenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Dukhat wrote: View Post
First of all, do you know for a fact that Jeffries actually built the Constellation? That seems to be the crux of your argument.
No, I don't know who built the model. It's commonly asserted that Jefferies built the model but like many things associated with this topic, we don't have hard facts to back up what we say we "know."

Regarding the Constellation's registry, I know for a fact only the five things I've listed above.

I'd like to know more. So that's why I'm asking everyone if they have relevant primary source material.

I don't really have an "argument" I'm trying to make. Except, perhaps, that we fans need to do more primary research. Because I'm realizing that what I thought I knew about the Constellation model and it's registry isn't based on much evidence at all. In other words, most of what I "know" is hearsay and conjecture.

And I'm surprised that we can't nail this one down with more precision, given the amount of time Jefferies was alive after the series ended and the amount of attention during that time period that fans have been obsessing about registry numbers.

We really dropped the ball on this one.

How hard would it have been for someone to write a letter to Jefferies back in, say, 1980 and ask him about the registry? And about the model? That would have been easy. So why didn't anyone do it?

I'll bet someone did. It's just a matter of finding the person.
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Old May 19 2012, 04:18 PM   #25
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I don't know why they used 1017 and not 1710. If I had to guess, I'd say that they did it because 1710 looks too much like 1701, at least on the low-resolution TV screens of the time.
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Old May 19 2012, 08:16 PM   #26
publiusr
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I think Shaw was working on a blueprint of the AMT model so as to have it predate Constitution.

http://www.shawcomputing.net/racerx/...sembly_004.jpg
BTW here is a nice workaround to make AMT models look better:
http://federationreference.prophpbb....30.html#p10459

Some other nice resources--first up--a great series of Pre-TOS cruisers:
http://federationreference.prophpbb....90.html#p15297
Everhart's effort brought to life:
http://federationreference.prophpbb....43.html#p15562
O/T--a refit era resource
http://federationreference.prophpbb....30.html#p15597
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Old May 19 2012, 09:35 PM   #27
yenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

The USS. Constellation is made from a Enterprise model that was sold to fans. That was base on the studio model. But I think they did some changes to the Studio model Enterprise before filming, but didn't inform the toy model making company of the changes.
To me the Enterprise that was seen on the Cage, look different then the Enterprise during the series.
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Old May 20 2012, 01:04 AM   #28
Tribble Herder
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

Norway Productions was just the name of Roddenberry's production company. Star Trek used three or four effects houses during the run of the series, so it's just a question of which one did the new effects shots for "The Doomsday Machine". And since the effects houses were across town from Desilu/Paramount, it's entirely possible that Jefferies never even saw the model until it appeared on screen, but that might be pushing it. It's likely that someone else built it, and considering the nature of the project, it could just as easily have been someone's kid and not someone actually on staff.

As for the registry number, the sole concern was so that it could be easily discerned at a distance, i.e., on a small tv screen (certainly small and horribly low resolution by our standards), so yeah, 1710 still looked too much like 1701.

And why the terribly inaccurate AMT model? Compared to mucking up the eleven footer (a very expensive piece of hardware) for the sake of one episode, sending a flunky out with a couple of bucks to get a store bought model and slap it together is not only an incredible bargain by comparison, it's also a major time saver (which is also a big money saver). And for the purposes of the show, it was close enough for government work. If someone got snarky about the differences in the details from the Constellation and the Enterprise, they'd probably come to the same rationalizations we have, using the aircraft carrier analogy, and say you're perfectly welcome to imagine that the Constellation is either a variant of the Constitution class, or it's an older class, whichever works for you.

I prefer the older starship class option. It gives the fleet a bit more of a sense of history, it fills the gap between the Daedalus and Constitution classes, and goes a looooong way towards explaining that freakishly low registry number.
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Old May 20 2012, 01:16 AM   #29
BillJ
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

I just figure that the Constellation either got the name/registry of a prior ship that went out heroically or was built as a different class then upgraded to Constitution-class specs during a refit.

In universe that is.
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Old May 20 2012, 09:51 AM   #30
Kenny
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Re: Matt Jefferies and NCC-1017

The end credits for "The Doomsday Machine" list a company called Cinema Research as responsible for the photographic effects.

Any idea if this company is still around? If they are, they MAY still have some archival paperwork that may shed some light on this topic.
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