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Old May 18 2012, 06:20 PM   #31
DonIago
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

I would instead argue that in Tuvok's case, at least, he knew the risks when he joined Starfleet. The lines may get a bit more blurry for Neelix.
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Old May 18 2012, 07:55 PM   #32
MatthiasRussell
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
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Old May 18 2012, 08:08 PM   #33
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
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Old May 18 2012, 09:04 PM   #34
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
um, what? She's a captain, not a dictator. You think that military captains have the right to "do what they please" to a member of their crew?
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Old May 18 2012, 09:14 PM   #35
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

sonak wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
um, what? She's a captain, not a dictator. You think that military captains have the right to "do what they please" to a member of their crew?
Under those circumstances, with no superior, she has whatever authority she assigns to herself, so long as the crew backs her up. If she goes too far, they of course, could/would mutiny and no longer support her. And again, if/when, they arrive in Federation Space, she could/would be held responsible for her actions.
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Old May 18 2012, 09:21 PM   #36
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

She has the authority to order members of Starfleet to their death to accomplish a mission or to save her ship and crew, but Neelix is not a member of Starfleet. She has the legal right to order him off the ship, but not the legal right to demand he lay down his life.


BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?
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Old May 18 2012, 09:27 PM   #37
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
She has the authority to order members of Starfleet to their death to accomplish a mission or to save her ship and crew, but Neelix is not a member of Starfleet. She has the legal right to order him off the ship, but not the legal right to demand he lay down his life.


BTW, would anyone who has seen Ashes to Ashes care to comment on the similarities or differences between the cases of Lyndsay Ballard and Tuvix?
Who would stop her from doing whatever she wanted? The only ones who could stop her, is a mutinous crew. Starfleet is 70,000 Light Years away, they have no contact with her, and no way to give her orders, until that happens, she answers to no one but herself, so she has whatever authority she assigns herself, as long as she has the muscle of the crew supporting her.
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Old May 18 2012, 10:54 PM   #38
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Living in a democracy, we forget how its like in the military, esp the "old days" sailing the the seven seas where the Captain's word WAS (and probably is, in international waters) LAW.

JANEWAY: Maybe this is one of those decisions that the captain has to make for the entire ship.
CHAKOTAY: You may have a problem if a lot of people want to stay.
JANEWAY: I know that, but at the same time I can't take a vote every time there's a major decision to be made. And yet, we're a long way from Starfleet, and a lot of the rules and regulations I've learnt to uphold seem distant as well.

Janeway, 75000 light years away from the alpha quadrant, is it for these people.

We tend to forget several points about the Tuvix conundrum.

first...

Initially, Tuvix actively tried to create a method to reverse this situation.

EMH: We've made over a hundred attempts to reverse the symbiogenesis using the medical transporter, and each time this has been the unfortunate result. Complete cellular collapse.
KIM: The genetic codes of the chrysanthemum and the clematis are so scrambled that the targeting scanners can't recognise the original patterns.
TUVIX: I suppose it would be like trying to extract the flour, eggs and water after you've baked the cake.
EMH: Obviously, in the case of Mister Tuvix, we're dealing with a much more complex organism than a flower. In effect, we're talking about recreating two humanoid life-forms without so much as a single discrete strand of DNA to start with.
TUVIX: Are you saying I'm going to be this way forever?
EMH: I am an incredibly skilled doctor, and I will continue to pursue a safe and effective treatment until I find one. But I won't lie to you. I'm not optimistic. It could take months, even years, to find a solution. And we must face the possibility that this condition is simply untreatable. I feel as though I've lost two patients. I'm sorry.

second...

Tuvix isn't a new lifeform... he's Neelix and Tuvok. Unlike Lindsay Ballard, there isn't someone new here, there is just an amalgamation of two previous beings.

KES: Well, do you feel as if you're thinking with two minds, two separate minds? Are Neelix and Tuvok inside of you, talking to me, talking to each other?
TUVIX: If you mean am I suffering from some form of multiple personality disorder, I don't think so. I do have the memories of both men, but I seem to have a single consciousness.

and just a few lines later, this slips out of "Tuvix"...

TUVIX: I am so glad you're here to help me through this, sweeting. I'm sorry... It was instinct.

Sweeting.


A term of endearment reserved to one person out of the 150 or so onboard Voyager... Neelix. Not Tuvok. Not Tuvix.

Neelix.

Tuvix was an artifically created being out of the building blocks of two other living beings, not from the burnt out corpse like someone we know.

Two other living beings that had a certain expectation of the Captain to whom they were expected to pledge their life, their work, their very posterity to.

Magistrate [on viewscreen]: You're talking about a very specific case. Nevad was able to claim responsibility for the prince as a father and as a king. That's why the spirits were willing to listen to him.
JANEWAY: The Captain of a starship is fully responsible for every member of her crew.
Magistrate [on viewscreen]: So she is.
JANEWAY: And on that basis, I'd like to go through the ritual myself.

That's why this show is so powerful.

Janeway was willing and able to take on the SIN of killing this new lifeform, to save her two crewmen.

We know she thinks its a sin, because of the face we see as she leaves the sickbay.

We know she believes all three have a right to live, but that possession may be 9/10's of the law... but in the end its ONLY 9/10's of the law.

This Captain had the balls to stand up for the 1/10... those 2 individuals who (except for Kes) were without a voice in the argument.

Kes: ...Tuvix doesn't deserve to die, but I want Neelix back.

If I was 75,000 light years from home, I know who I'd want in my corner.

Someone willing to march into 800 megajoules of bioelectric energy to save my life.

Someone willing to rip her soul into shreds to save me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TusE73gkEyQ

Because... quite honestly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29SZnMaTsxY

I'd do it to save her.


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Old May 18 2012, 11:05 PM   #39
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

And conversely, as noted, I -wouldn't- want someone in my corner who'd be willing to murder an innocent lifeform just to bring me back to life.

I'll keep The Doctor in my corner.
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Old May 18 2012, 11:53 PM   #40
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.
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Old May 19 2012, 02:29 AM   #41
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post

So if someone is lost in a transporter snafu, when do you declare them dead? Their signal merged to become an entirely new signal- a new lifeform. At that moment they ceased to exist. The doctor may not have declared them dead, but since their transporter patterns were lost and their matter destroyed and reconstructed, they were biologically dead.
Not according to the EMH in the episode.
If their patterns were lost then there never was any chance at separation. According to Tuvix himself, Neelix and Tuvok were alive in him. He had their memories and experiences. He also willingly agreed upon his creation that he would give up his life if a cure was found to bring them back. He knew all time that his life wasn't promised.
Plus, if this is the case then de-Borging Picard and Seven was also killing a lifeform because they both cease to be Jean-Luc Picard and Annika Hansen and are as Borg are new life.
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Old May 19 2012, 02:34 AM   #42
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Janeway does have the authority to order Tuvok to his death but doesn't have the authority to do so with Neelix. I'm not so sure whether she had the legal authority to order Tuvix to his death.

Even if she had the authority to (which I won't argue), that doesn't mean it was the moral thing to do. Also, under the Starfleet charter to seek out new life, even if she had the legal authority to execute Tuvix, that doesn't mean it was very principled to kill a new form of life or species.
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.
Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?
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Old May 19 2012, 03:24 AM   #43
sonak
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

DonIago wrote: View Post
And conversely, as noted, I -wouldn't- want someone in my corner who'd be willing to murder an innocent lifeform just to bring me back to life.

I'll keep The Doctor in my corner.

there was nobody to speak for Tuvok and Neelix there, and obviously they could have made no such statements beforehand since this was such a freak occurrence.
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Old May 19 2012, 04:18 AM   #44
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

To be fair, we don't know what rights one voluntarily waives when one joins Starfleet, or what the conditions of Neelix becoming a member of the crew might have been.

While the particulars of this situation may have been unprecedented, transporter accidents on the whole are hardly unknown to Starfleet.
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Old May 19 2012, 08:53 AM   #45
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Of course she has the authority to do whatever with Neelix, he's a member of her crew, and she is the Captain, without contact with her superiors, she is Judge, Jury and Executioner on her ship. Now, of course, if/when they make it back to Federation Space, she could be Court Martialed for any judgements/actions she took that Starfleet might disagree with, but, as long as she's top dog, it's her ship, and she can do as she pleases.

Now of course, this doesn't make immoral acts moral, it only states she is at this time, the ultimate authority on her ship.

However, I don't think her decision to save Neelix and Tuvok by sacrificing Tuvix was immoral.
Unfortunantly from a legal point of view she had no right to decide as she was emotional invested in the outcome. She should have recused herself until such time starfleet could be contacted so an impartial judge could decide.

After all the argument seems to be Tuvix had no rights, so what's the problem if he had to wait an indefinate time until someone impartial had ruled on the matter.

Tuvix had the same right to life as Tuvok and Neelix.
Didn't Tuvix agree that if a cure was found he would willingly under go it to bring back Neelix and Tuvok? So isn't he willingly forfeiting his right to life?
If Tuvix was willing to do it, why did we need a hearing?
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