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Old May 17 2012, 11:00 PM   #16
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

In the case of Quinn, Janeway decides the rights of the individual is more important than the will and laws of the state.

In the case of Tuvix, she decides the good of whole is more important than the pursuit of life and liberty for the individual. Plus, it seems her decision was more of an emotional one than a rational one. When Kes came to her in tears saying she wanted Neelix back, Janeway couldn't refuse.
Easy to say I know but Justice is supposed to be rational not emotional. I.e. based on the evidence not the emotions that can come with that.

In the case of Tuvix when is he entitiled to the rights afforded Tuvok or Neelix? Or is he not enttitled to those rights?
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Old May 17 2012, 11:10 PM   #17
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

In the case of Quinn, Janeway decides the rights of the individual is more important than the will and laws of the state.

In the case of Tuvix, she decides the good of whole is more important than the pursuit of life and liberty for the individual. Plus, it seems her decision was more of an emotional one than a rational one. When Kes came to her in tears saying she wanted Neelix back, Janeway couldn't refuse.
Easy to say I know but Justice is supposed to be rational not emotional. I.e. based on the evidence not the emotions that can come with that.

In the case of Tuvix when is he entitiled to the rights afforded Tuvok or Neelix? Or is he not enttitled to those rights?
My opinion, would be, when he is told he is welcome to the life, that efforts to reverse the accident have been exhausted and Tuvok and Neelix are given up on. Until then, he is living their lives, they should be allowed to be saved, they weren't dead, they were merged.
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Old May 17 2012, 11:33 PM   #18
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.
Oh, we see it, some of us just disagree with your rationale.

Those for separating Tuvix BELIEVE in the rights of the individual Tuvok and the individual Neelix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYPMi...eature=related

On the other hand... blaming the civil war on Quinn gives him too much power. Quinn's deathwish wasn't a catalyst as much as a symptom of the flaws in the Q continuum. Flaws that "our" Q had admitted to during and at the end of the episode.

Q: Illogical, Tuvok? I don't think so. By demanding to end his life, he taught me a little something about my own. He was right when he said the Continuum scared me back in line. I didn't have his courage or his convictions. He called me irrepressible. This was a man who was truly irrepressible. I only hope I make a worthy student.

JANEWAY: I imagine the Continuum won't be very happy with you, Q.
Q: I certainly hope not. Au revoir, Madam Captain. We will meet again.


As always... YMMV.
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Old May 17 2012, 11:36 PM   #19
MacLeod
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

So you are basically saying as a lifeform Tuvix has no rights what so ever?
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Old May 17 2012, 11:42 PM   #20
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So you are basically saying as a lifeform Tuvix has no rights what so ever?
since JanewayRulez slid in before you, not sure if this is directed at me or her, but, no, that's not what I'm saying. He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.
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Old May 17 2012, 11:54 PM   #21
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

So if hypothetically Tuvix said can you drop me off on this planet before you go. Janeway would have to leave him there? The only alternative would be to imprision him.

And what meaningful life could he have if the threat of beaming killed was looming over him?

At what point to you say enough time has passed before you give up on Neelix and Tuvok? A week, A year? What would happen theortically if they only discovered a way to get Neelix and Tuvok back 3 years after the accident. Would it be ok to do it then?

What legal parameters do you set? Strictly speaking Janeway shouldn't have been presiding over the matter, as she has an emotional investment in the outcome. It was only due to Voyager's unique circumstances that she had to. She has no set a dangerous precedent in law.
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Old May 18 2012, 02:14 AM   #22
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Quinn's decision didn't affect anyone else's rights.

It affected the rights, legal system, and principles of an entire society that Janeway couldn't understand and resulted in a civil war that killed several Q.
Ummm, no.
Janeway gave Quinn life in the hopes that he would continue living, which is what the Q wanted. It was Q that started the Civil War by helping Quinn commit suicide which the Q found to be a sin. Janeway did all she could to give Quinn a reason to live.
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Old May 18 2012, 02:20 AM   #23
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Tuvix was alive for some time in which time Tuvok and Neelix could and maybe should have been considered legally dead. Tuvix wasn't killed to save 2 lives, he was killed to bring 2 people back from the dead.
If they were considered dead, then they never could have been brought back in the first place. The show starts off with the EMH saying that he can find a way to separate them to bring them back. The chief medical officer didn't consider or pronounce them dead, then there is no reason we should.
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Old May 18 2012, 11:12 AM   #24
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

But in order to bring them back did they have to in essence murder Tuvix?
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Old May 18 2012, 03:21 PM   #25
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

exodus wrote: View Post
If they were considered dead, then they never could have been brought back in the first place. The show starts off with the EMH saying that he can find a way to separate them to bring them back. The chief medical officer didn't consider or pronounce them dead, then there is no reason we should.
So if someone is lost in a transporter snafu, when do you declare them dead? Their signal merged to become an entirely new signal- a new lifeform. At that moment they ceased to exist. The doctor may not have declared them dead, but since their transporter patterns were lost and their matter destroyed and reconstructed, they were biologically dead.

Plus, the doctor, like Janeway, was emotionally compromised as the individuals were his friends and persoanl patients. Just because he didn't want to declare them dead, doesn't mean that he shouldn't have.
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Old May 18 2012, 03:27 PM   #26
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

Sindatur wrote: View Post
He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.

So what about Lyndsay Ballard in "Ashes to Ashes"? She was just as dead as Neelix and Tuvok. However, Janeway let the new lifeform in her body run off with Lyndsay's biologically alive body and memories. How did the new lifeform there have more rights as an individual than Tuvix? Or was it because the ship was threatened, the individual was sacrificed for the good of the group?
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Old May 18 2012, 03:33 PM   #27
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.

So what about Lyndsay Ballard in "Ashes to Ashes"? She was just as dead as Neelix and Tuvok. However, Janeway let the new lifeform in her body run off with Lyndsay's biologically alive body and memories. How did the new lifeform there have more rights as an individual than Tuvix? Or was it because the ship was threatened, the individual was sacrificed for the good of the group?
I don't know who Lyndsay Ballard is, nor do I recall an episode Ashes to Ashes. Might this be an episode later than mid-season 3 (I've missed alot beyond mid-season 3 and currently watching all the way through)?

It sounds to me like you wouldn't be in favor of Deborgifying Seven. Annika was, afterall, "killed" by the Borg, and another person, part of the Collective, took her place. That other person was killed when Seven was De-Borgified. How long ago was Annika assimilated, years, I believe, far longer than Tuvix existed
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Old May 18 2012, 03:53 PM   #28
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

But one possible argument is that Annika had her individuality stolen from her. When she was removed from the collective she had what was stolen from her returned.

In the case of Quinn he was impriosned in part for wanting to end his own life. So he was denied choice.

In the case of Tuvok and Neelix, they knew the risks when stepping into the transporter that there was a possibility no matter how remote that the transporter could malfunction which it did. If you willingly take a risk and it doesn't pay off why should someone else have to pay for your gamble?
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Old May 18 2012, 04:17 PM   #29
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

This is why I still think it would have been awesome if Tuvok and Neelix had been allowed to express any sort of opinion regarding the cost involved in restoring them. While it can be argued that Tuvix was biased, it could also be argued that he was in the best position to know what Tuvok and Neelix would feel about the idea of killing him to bring them back, and I believe he made his opposition patently obvious.

I sure as hell wouldn't be too thrilled to think that someone who meant me no harm was killed in order to save my life, especially if they were an entirely unique lifeform.
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Old May 18 2012, 04:38 PM   #30
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Re: Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But one possible argument is that Annika had her individuality stolen from her. When she was removed from the collective she had what was stolen from her returned.

In the case of Quinn he was impriosned in part for wanting to end his own life. So he was denied choice.

In the case of Tuvok and Neelix, they knew the risks when stepping into the transporter that there was a possibility no matter how remote that the transporter could malfunction which it did. If you willingly take a risk and it doesn't pay off why should someone else have to pay for your gamble?
If we were talking about the NX-01 Transporter, I could give this argument of the gamble credence, but, not by the time of Voyager, getting on the ship in the first place, or taking a shuttle down to the planet is far more of a gamble then using the transporter in Voyager's time. That's like blaming someone for getting hit by a drunk driver on New Year's Eve if they gamble to drive that night

Annika and her parents took a bigger gamble being on a ship the Borg could assimlate, than the gamble Neelix and Tuvok took to use the transporter.
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