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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 11 2012, 11:07 PM   #16
Unicron
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
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"The Wounded" seems to imply that Maxwell was at least partially right about the Cardassians being underhanded, but employed the wrong solution in taking his own initiative. However, that the Feds and the Cardassians agreed to exchange some border worlds and to establish a DMZ doesn't necessarily mean these agreements were the same as Chamberlain's attempts to gain peace by appeasing Germany. We don't have enough of a context for what went into them.

TNG and DS9 both support the notion that there were plenty of individual Cardassians who disagreed with their government's devotion to militarism, and that even guys like Damar (who early on was a vocal supporter of the alliance with the Dominion and believed it would ultimately help Cardassia) could switch sides when they realized they had accepted a position that was more disadvantage than advantage.
In the treaty that established the DMZ, human beings who left earth before the Federation was even founded had to give up their homes to the Cardassian Union in exchange for a peace treaty that the Cardassian Union that they seemed to have no intention of honoring. Even when the agreement was amended to allow those people to keep their homes under Cardassian rule, the Central Command did everything it could to chase the Federation colonists out of those territories.
Are you referring to the colonists from "Journey's End" who were primarily of Native American descent? I haven't seen the episode in a while so I don't recall if any details were given about the DMZ (other than the prospect of switching some of the border colonies), but I'm not sure their lineage would mean they're descended from pre-UFP settlers. I could be wrong. I haven't seen "The Maquis" in some time either, so you could be right about the Central Command chasing them off. Guess I should look at Memory Alpha.

The treaty only lasted 3 years (2370 to 2373) before another war occurred, that's how ineffective it was.
But the treaty was made before either government was aware of a new power on the street, in the form of the Dominion, and they proved as capable in some of their large scale manipulations as they did in the early phases of the war militarily. Having opportunistic Cardassians like Dukat and Damar probably didn't help, but I think it's fair to argue that the Dominion deserves a fair bit of blame for why the treaty failed.
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Old May 11 2012, 11:58 PM   #17
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Well, Maxwell was right that a harder line needed to be taken against the Cardassians given that there was evidence they were violating the treaty. However, he was wrong to take matters into his own hands. The Federation should have taken a much harder negotiating stance and really gone up the chain for official reprisals on any violations the Cardassians got caught in.

As an aside...I had the feeling from Macet that he got stuck in a situation that sucked too. I never saw the enthusiastic arrogance in him that we saw in a lot of Cardassians. So I think he wanted peace...but was also aware, and under orders, to lie and cover up the re-arming too. One sucktastic position to be in.
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Old May 12 2012, 05:13 AM   #18
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Of course he was right, and for several reasons.

The supply ships had dampening fields to confuse sensors. The Cardassians were willing to go to war over Minos Korva, and there almost was a war in Journey's End.

DS9 IMO was different, since the Cardassians only were aggressive due to being beaten by the Klingons.
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Old May 12 2012, 05:43 AM   #19
Ian Keldon
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
As an aside...I had the feeling from Macet that he got stuck in a situation that sucked too. I never saw the enthusiastic arrogance in him that we saw in a lot of Cardassians. So I think he wanted peace...but was also aware, and under orders, to lie and cover up the re-arming too. One sucktastic position to be in.
Alternately, Macet got blindsided by the situation just as Dukat did when dealing with the Obsidian Order during the Defiant crisis.

Either way, Maxwell was right in his suspicions, but wrong in his methods (as others have pointed out).
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Old May 12 2012, 06:21 AM   #20
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Yeah, there's the possibility Macet was blindsided, too--perhaps even deliberately, by Central Command playing him because they knew he was the sort who would actually work hard to avoid a war. They may have hoped his earnestness would give them a cover of plausible deniability (as well as earn them points in the upcoming treaty negotiations by making them look friendly and cooperative).
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Old May 12 2012, 07:10 AM   #21
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Are you referring to the colonists from "Journey's End" who were primarily of Native American descent? I haven't seen the episode in a while so I don't recall if any details were given about the DMZ (other than the prospect of switching some of the border colonies), but I'm not sure their lineage would mean they're descended from pre-UFP settlers.
This is often a source of confusion - but "Journey's End" described a situation that only passingly involved the DMZ. The premise of that episode was that a fixed border would at long last be drawn between the two expansionist powers, UFP and CU; that a DMZ would be drawn "along the border"; and that the shape of the border would be simplified by ceding some UFP worlds to CU and vice versa. The populations of all the ceded worlds were to be evacuated (Nechayev said the colonies would have to be "moved", and she wasn't talking about moving entire planets), but the Dorvan V folks ultimately decided to stay on their formerly-UFP world and become Cardassian citizens. We never heard of them again...

Dorvans being UFP, and furthermore not being the descendants of ancient settlers, is clarified in Nechayev's briefing:

Picard: "This border will put several Federation colonies in Cardassian territory... and some Cardassian colonies in ours."
[..]
Picard: "Dorvan Five... that's where the group of North American Indians has settled, isn't it?"
Nechayev: "Yes. They've been there for about twenty years... they've established a village in a small valley on the southern continent."
That these people are UFP citizens is not explicitly stated in dialogue, but Picard later insists that the planet is "still Federation territory" when Gul Evek makes threats.

As for the lineage of the Dorvans, their leader says they left Earth 200 years prior in search of the perfect new home. Nothing indicates they would have been stuck in a spaceship for that time, though; probably they moved from place to place. After all, the UFP had the chance to warn them about the risks of settling on Dorvan V, apparently just prior to them making that ill-conceived decision.

The supply ships had dampening fields to confuse sensors.
That shouldn't be proof of anything, though. In "Rules of Engagement", we learn that Klingons routinely cloak even their nonmilitary shipments. Probably they do this to keep the enemy guessing, or at least annoyed. Doesn't mean they would be up to anything, beyond their usual "everybody is an enemy even if otherwise proven" mentality.

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Old May 12 2012, 11:34 AM   #22
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Well leaving Earth 200 years ago, would date it to shortly after the Federation was founded.
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Old May 12 2012, 03:37 PM   #23
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Maxwell was right, of course. His actions definitely slowed down Cardassian efforts to fortify their border with the Federation and their ability to launch an offensive strike.

So officially the Federation frowned upon Maxwell's actions, privately they were probably applauding what happened.
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Old May 12 2012, 04:56 PM   #24
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Thanks Timo. I couldn't recall what details were mentioned in the episode about the Dorvan colonists. I do recall the Dorvan leader mentioning that one Picard's ancestors had been involved in past conflicts with his family's ancestors, but not much specific beyond that.
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Old May 12 2012, 04:58 PM   #25
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

yes, he was right.


He took the wrong actions and approach but his overall point was correct.
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Old May 13 2012, 05:07 AM   #26
Ian Keldon
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Yeah, there's the possibility Macet was blindsided, too--perhaps even deliberately, by Central Command playing him because they knew he was the sort who would actually work hard to avoid a war. They may have hoped his earnestness would give them a cover of plausible deniability (as well as earn them points in the upcoming treaty negotiations by making them look friendly and cooperative).
Wouldn't be the first time...that too happened to Dukat when the Central Command tried to pass the blame for Cardassian activities in the DMZ off on him.
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Old May 13 2012, 05:08 AM   #27
Ian Keldon
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Well leaving Earth 200 years ago, would date it to shortly after the Federation was founded.
When they left Earth =/= when the colony was founded.
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Old May 13 2012, 08:41 AM   #28
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

...Although if we wanted, we could still claim that it was. That is, a ship leaving Earth 200 years ago might have spent 180 years at sublight (or low warp), with the colonists in cryosleep as was customary for the time (Harry Kim describes a cryosleep colonizer from as late as 2210). They would awake at their promised land - only to meet a Starfleet vessel whose captain would tell them that it would be a really bad idea to set shop down there because the Cardassians were right next door, but that as UFP citizens, they had the right to do so nevertheless.

His actions definitely slowed down Cardassian efforts to fortify their border with the Federation and their ability to launch an offensive strike.
How so? He destroyed two warships and one transport that may or may not have been contributing to the escalation effort. Hardly a devastating loss, considering what we later learn of the scale of the Cardassian military. And nothing in his actions was indicated to have the consequence of discouraging the Cardassians; to the contrary, at the conclusion, the villains of the week learned that Starfleet would not inspect their shipments.

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Old May 17 2012, 06:27 PM   #29
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

sonak wrote: View Post
yes, he was right.


He took the wrong actions and approach but his overall point was correct.

Agreed.
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Old May 17 2012, 09:50 PM   #30
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Re: Was Ben Maxwell right about the Cardassians?

Timo wrote: View Post
His actions definitely slowed down Cardassian efforts to fortify their border with the Federation and their ability to launch an offensive strike.
How so? He destroyed two warships and one transport that may or may not have been contributing to the escalation effort. Hardly a devastating loss, considering what we later learn of the scale of the Cardassian military. And nothing in his actions was indicated to have the consequence of discouraging the Cardassians; to the contrary, at the conclusion, the villains of the week learned that Starfleet would not inspect their shipments.

Timo Saloniemi
He may have only destroyed a few craft but he brought the entire area of space to the attention of Starfleet and the Federation. Plus he blew the cover on them using dampening fields on science and transport vessels.

Which is why the Cardassians stage their later attempt from Galorndon Core, nearly three years later.
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