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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 12 2012, 02:14 AM   #1276
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
The Ship (***)
...
Meanwhile, Worf, who has served with humans for about 15 years now, and as head of security on the Enterprise for 6/7 years has seen more than his fair share of death under his command, completely forgets how humans deal with death and picks a fight with O'Brien. I know that the pressure was getting to him and that's why he was being such an ass, but I don't like it when they use Worf in that way, the character is more complex than that. ...
I agree 100%. Worf was a trained, experienced Starfleet officer who was raised by human foster parents. It is ridiculous that he would be so crass about the dying crewman. Even if he felt that way, he would have known enough to keep his own counsel.

I wish O'Brien would have cold-cocked him. (Of course, Worf would have snapped his neck, but it would have been worth it.)
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Old May 12 2012, 12:48 PM   #1277
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Thinking of experience with dealing with casualties and the general horrors of combat, it's funny how out of the command crew of DS9, O'Brien is considered the combat veteran over Worf.
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Old May 12 2012, 01:31 PM   #1278
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Well Worf talks the talk, clearly, as opposed to ever doing any actual fighting. Honour this and honour that- my foot!

In TNG he was clearly shown to be weaker than just about everything in existence.

Of course the writers used him as a crutch quite often. Whichever new enemy would turn up and kick him into next week to show how strong they were.
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Old May 12 2012, 02:59 PM   #1279
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I would say it's more that while Worf has combat experience, it's more the kind of work that Security typically handles in Trek episodes. O'Brien actually served during a war and saw combat on a much larger scale.
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Old May 12 2012, 03:36 PM   #1280
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I liked how The Ship actually made redshirt deaths seem important for once. The only other Trek show I can remember who did that was Enterprise during the late Xindi arc. I also liked Kilana, it's a shame we only saw her in this episode. She's no Weyoun, but after him certainly my favourite Vorta.
Yeah, I liked Kilana. Yeah, I know, she's best known for introducing us to Vorta cleavage, but the actress was good and the character was interesting for a one-off, would've enjoyed seeing more of her ... erm ... that came out wrong ... you know what I mean.

Fun fact, she was originally going to be Eris (the first Vorta we met at the end of Season 2). This was the second time they tried to bring Eris back, but once again the actress was unavailable.
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Old May 12 2012, 08:18 PM   #1281
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
I would say it's more that while Worf has combat experience, it's more the kind of work that Security typically handles in Trek episodes. O'Brien actually served during a war and saw combat on a much larger scale.
Agreed. Worf holds the Klingon warrior tradition in high esteem, but in the sense of practicing a religion. He participates in ritual (various competitions, etc) and through training keeps himself in shape in accordance with the way of the warrior. That's not the same as actually having lived the warrior's life the way Klingons like Kor or Martok have. It makes him proficient with weapons and very good in a fight, but "warrior" is still an ideal for him; an aspect of identity, not a job description.

Worf's a security man who happens to live by a tradition that promotes physical prowess and combat. O'Brien, meanwhile, was an actual soldier and saw action in disputed territories, on the ground. He may be about 1/10th as martial in terms of his outlooks and interests, and he obviously couldn't compare to Worf in terms of weapons proficiency or physical contests, but in terms of the realities of combat outside of ritualized tradition (well, to the extent that warfare isn't always ritualized tradition, but that's another matter...), I'd bet on O'Brien. Worf is often detatched from realities of non-"honourable" combat, perhaps especially emotional realities. He doesn't see combat and death primarily in terms of the people affected, he sees them as an abstract idealized frame of reference for his personal belief system.

On a related note, in terms of experience, I'd think O'Brien was more useful on that front than Worf any day, precisely because O'Brien cares nothing for combat but has still engaged in it. Who would you rather trust in, the person whose perceptions are welded to a preconceived and often idealized idea of how combat works, along with a long list of culturally-approved descriptors designed to warp the experience into butressing a ideological framework defining his people, or the guy who had no interest in combat beforehand (or afterward), and simply found himself engaging in it at one point in his career, doing the best he could, and who can share his personal experience without anything at stake for him beyond the act of advising?
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Old May 12 2012, 08:36 PM   #1282
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

DonIago wrote: View Post
I would say it's more that while Worf has combat experience, it's more the kind of work that Security typically handles in Trek episodes. O'Brien actually served during a war and saw combat on a much larger scale.
Well, Worf did serve during the Klingon Civil War that lasted three months or so (IIRC).
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Old May 12 2012, 08:40 PM   #1283
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Harvey wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I would say it's more that while Worf has combat experience, it's more the kind of work that Security typically handles in Trek episodes. O'Brien actually served during a war and saw combat on a much larger scale.
Well, Worf did serve during the Klingon Civil War that lasted three months or so (IIRC).
Good point. I for one forget about that (mostly because it was a rather rushed affair and isn't mentioned by Worf very often)...
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Old May 13 2012, 05:15 PM   #1284
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places (****½)

What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more.





Okay, so this isn't really a romance-of-the-week episode, I've just been itching to post that video ever since I found it. And aren't you glad I shared? This is kinda more of a I-want-to-have-sex-of-the-week episode, which is very normal for most people but a departure from the format for post-Kirk Trek. Worf is sexually attracted to Grilka and in his desire to be a good Klingon he mistakes his feelings for par'Mach and attempts to get into her armour. Meanwhile, Quark also wants to get into her armour and pretends it's par'Mach to do so. For a comedy episode, this is far more grounded in actual human behaviour than normal romace episodes.

What can I say other than that this episode episode is a joy to watch? It's whimsical, has some good gags, and actually contains some meaningful character material for Worf. I found myself grinning through most of the episode, which is an unusual change from the scowl I attempt to maintain while judging television shows. Some of the scenes may have been a little too rich in comedy goodness, but I'm willing to give it a pass.

Meanwhile, Miles and Kira are in their quarters one night, making out with each other. As things start to get more intense, Miles begins to take off Kira's uniform. Kira smiles warmly, and says "We should have done this a long time ago." Miles leans over and nuzzles Kira playfully. "I agree," he says, "but let's not tell Keiko."

Then they had sex right on the couch.

Or something like that.
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Old May 13 2012, 05:55 PM   #1285
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

enjoyed that episode, the part with worf doing the moves for quark during the challenge came across as rubbish though and too overplayed but a minor grievance in the overall show.
everything else was pretty decent for a light hearted episode
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Old May 13 2012, 06:54 PM   #1286
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

It was a brilliant episode, a very worthy sequel to the equally excellent House of Quark. I thought the scene with Quark fighting using the control thingie with Worf was brilliant, only at the end did I remember no-one was actually being controlled; Armin Shimerman was just acting his ass off. I also liked the old Klingon quite a lot, and how, when Worf was trying to woo Grilka, he didn't go the standard shouty Klingon "DISHONOURABLE DOG, FIGHT ME TO THE DEATH!!!!" thing, but just took Worf aside and explained she was not interested like a normal person. And Worf and Jadzia playing Cyrano for Quark... Well, overall this episode was just a delight.
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Old May 13 2012, 11:21 PM   #1287
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

I laughed so hard at Quark's expression after Worf broke the transmitter.
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Old May 14 2012, 02:56 AM   #1288
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
Maybe some admiral at Starfleet Command knows Sisko and knows that his... eccentricities would allow him to disguise himself as a Klingon quite easily.
I literally LOL'ed at "his... eccentricities." Sisko makes a better Klingon than Worf.

apenpaap wrote: View Post
I thought Avery was utterly awesome in this episode. It's like the little craziness that occassionally shows up when he's playing Sisko is all let out in this episode and makes it very enjoyable to watch him.
Agreed.

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Agreed. Worf holds the Klingon warrior tradition in high esteem, but in the sense of practicing a religion. He participates in ritual (various competitions, etc) and through training keeps himself in shape in accordance with the way of the warrior. That's not the same as actually having lived the warrior's life the way Klingons like Kor or Martok have. It makes him proficient with weapons and very good in a fight, but "warrior" is still an ideal for him; an aspect of identity, not a job description.
This gets touched on very briefly in "Let He Who is Without Sin" )or as I prefer to call is "That Episode We Do Not Speak Of"). Worf is kind of a textbook Klingon who has all these ideals but has never lived with Klingons aside from a few months here or there. He acts all "tough Klingon" but what does he really know? When push comes to shove, he'd much rather have a glass of prune juice than anything else.

Also agree on how fun "Par'mach" was. I even liked the O'Brien/Kira thing, it was a bold yet realistic direction for them to explore. It sucks that the follow up to it ("That Episode We Do Not Speak Of") was so craptastic.
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Old May 14 2012, 03:26 PM   #1289
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Looking for... Wrong Places is probably one of DS9's most funny episodes! I could say more but I'm down with one nasty cold. Though I would like to say shame on O'Brien for even thinking about making out with Kira! But he can be included with the few men to see Kira naked: Bareil, Shakaar, plus Odo of course.
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Old May 14 2012, 03:37 PM   #1290
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Hehe, I had forgotten about the O'Brien/Kira subplot. I loved that, especially the moment when they suddenly both realised what was happening, as well as how mean Odo was when talking to Kira (Who'd ever have guessed he'd act like that to her? It left me wondering whether Quark or Julian was on the other side of that table for a moment).
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