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Old May 10 2012, 04:14 PM   #91
Sindatur
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
Heroes and Demons

Harry Kim is in the holodeck, and cannot be reached. Tuvok and Chakotay go in manually to find him. Kim has created a program based on the epic poem, Beowulf. When he goes missing, Tuvok and Chakotay search the holodeck for him. Freya confronts Tuvok and Chakotay and after she describes Beowulf (Kim). Tuvok responds, “Grand Eloquence notwithstanding that would qualify as a description of Kim.” I love this! Even though Kim is somewhat growing on me I still enjoy a good guffaw at Kim! They have some great costumes in the holonovel. Why is it that the crew does not automatically change into the appropriate costume when they enter a holoprogram?

I like Tuvok and Chakotay’s chat on demons in human culture. Chakotay explains that giving demons physical form in heroic literature allow humans to cope with their darkest emotions. Tuvok responds that such fables are necessary in cultures that unduly emphasize emotional behavior and that Vulcan literature does not contain any demons. Chakotay retorts that that is the reason why Vulcan literature is not popular! (And why Klingons made Opera cool again…)

While going through the censors they find that Kim was probably converted into energy when Grendel “killed” him. Photonic energy leaked into the holodeck and the conversion nodes were contaminated. Tuvok and Chakotay are “killed” (converted into energy) by Grendel too. Paris suggests that they send the Doctor into the holodeck. Kes suggests that the doctor pick a name before he leaves so he feels more like a Starfleet officer... “All hail Schweitzer!” Schweitzer? Albert Schweitzer…a medical theologian? How anti-climactic, and more importantly, what a horrible name!! Why is it that Unferth’s hand is injured when he brings his sword through the doctor when he is in his incorporeal form? How would that injure him? The scene with Freya and the doctor makes me wonder if he is “fully functional” like Data….

To make a long, somewhat overdone, story short (and I was so hopeful for a good doctor episode), Freya steps in the way and saves “Schweitzer” from Unferth. The crew found that Grendel is a life form and that until the Voyager hands over the samples they have (which are actually life forms) Grendel will not return their personnel. The Doc is successful and Tuvok, Chakotay, and Kim are all back safe and sound. Janeway tries to make the Chief Medical Officer feel better and asks for his official name and sure enough he decides to not keep it because the name’s memory is too painful. Why does the Doc have emotions and Data (originally) did not? How does the Doctor’s technology work? Why is it that he can only roam around in the holodeck and sick bay? I would think that with the advanced technology they could make it possible for him to go anywhere he wanted on the ship….

Favorite part: Tuvok and Chakotay’s discussion on why Earth’s literature has demons in it and the Doctor’s decision not to keep his name!!

Least favorite part: Why doesn’t the holoprogram put the crew in costume? It would be so much more fun if the crew was in appropriate costume! I loved Worf dressed up as a cowboy in DS9 (Fistful of Datas)!! Can you even imagine the awesome costume they could have given Janeway when she was hustling pool in Paris’ holoscene?
I liked this one quite a bit. I always appreciate a SciFi show's episodes about "Alien" Aliens. Most aliens, especially in Trek, are just "forehead" alterations, so when they do non-bipedal aliens, or aliens that live in space (The Nebula or Whale-like aliens living in Space, etc) I appreciate it, even if the episode misses the mark.

Regarding Unferth's injury, he swung full force at the Doctor, expecting the sword to make contact with flesh, it didn't, it kept going, gathering more velocity until it hit the ground, and that impact would cause you great pain in your hand(s).

Marjorie Monaghan (Freya) is not a great actress, but, I enjoy watching the roles she is given, because she's often well cast for that specific role

Holosuite costumes, I don't think it would be practical having the Holosuite create a costume image for you, plus, getting dressed up in costume, before going in, is part of the fun, and getting you into character, it also, often gives other characters great lines commenting on the costumes someone is wearing on their way into or out of the holosuite (See DS9)
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Old May 10 2012, 04:29 PM   #92
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I agree that it would be more fun to design your custome and have it made by the replicator, but seeing how they have a replicator energy shortage wouldn't it be more prudent if the holosuite generated the customes for now? I do feel like the doctor should have been in custome though. His goal was to basically infiltrate the holoprogram to get Chakotay, Tuvok, and Kim back. It would have been more exciting to see him "play the role" and try to fit in while pulling off his mission!

I liked their choice of actress for Freya too. She didn't have the most exciting part, but she died well!
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Old May 10 2012, 06:54 PM   #93
JanewayRulz!
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Re: The actress... did you know Marjorie was up for T'Pau (which was changed to T'Pol)?

http://www.trektoday.com/news/150401_02.shtml
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Old May 10 2012, 07:06 PM   #94
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

EEEK, no I did not. I can't imagine that as a good fit...
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Old May 10 2012, 07:56 PM   #95
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
Re: The actress... did you know Marjorie was up for T'Pau (which was changed to T'Pol)?

http://www.trektoday.com/news/150401_02.shtml
T'Pau or T'Pol, I'm very glad she didn't win either of those parts, I'm very happy with the portrayals we got. However, as stiff as her acting is, I think she would be a natural for a Vulcan
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Old May 11 2012, 03:50 AM   #96
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

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You Will Fail: Mulgrew said in an interview that it was a constant challenge for her to play Janeway. Every day, she told herself she'd crack it, and every day she didn't.

I can't see anyone doing better than her, though. Her character was written with some very unique mannerisms which one couldn't duplicate naturally unless they had those mannerisms themselves. I think just about any actor would have struggled with it.
I agree.
Lots of folks say Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew sucked but has anyone ever seen Patrick Stewart in character and do a scene that involved crying? He's terrible. Picard was nearly Vulcan at times he was so introverted emotionally. I found Brooks and Mulgrew IMO brought color to their characters by giving them more vibrant personalities.
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Old May 11 2012, 06:46 PM   #97
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I found Brooks to be excellent when he was really engaged with the material. Much of the time I found his approach too theatrical for TV.

I think Mulgrew was great as Janeway. I've talked about it before and I'll talk about it again, but it was the little things she did that really made you believe she was emotionally in every scene. There were definitely problems with Voyager, but Mulgrew's acting wasn't one of them.

Not to derail Qutluch's thread, but I think they took Sisko in the wrong direction. I liked how they started with him, as a single father doing his best to raise his son and make the quadrant a better place. The stuff with him being quasi-divine, to me, made it difficult for Brooks to make him a character you could relate to.

Janeway, I think, is someone that a lot of us can relate to. She's in way over her head, she knows it, but she's got to keep herself together for the sake of her crew, who are relying on her. I've never been stranded in the Delta Quadrant, but I can relate to her on an emotional level.
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Old May 11 2012, 07:59 PM   #98
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I don’t mind a derailment to make a couple of comments on Sisko. I really liked the story line in DS9 and Sisko’s role, which was really defined in the beginning but lost its focus, especially in the end. As Shatnertage points out he had two main goals: being a good Dad and making the Quadrant a better place to live. In the beginning he did a great job, but the ending of DS9 was lacking. It’s like the writers just didn’t think about it in full-circle. He started out one way and by the end it was all about him. How do they not have a goodbye episode with Jake? Jake was Sisko’s life. I would even argue that in the beginning it was more important for Sisko to be a good Dad than a good Captain…. In terms of acting, Avery Brooks had a great smile! He could be heart-warming when he wanted to be, but his acting was often too rigid and when he was angry the acting felt too scripted. On to Janeway, her character’s role is a tough one. They started out on one mission and got thrown into what seems like an impossible situation. How do you keep moral up in that situation? She has to be strong and confident, but a little more understanding than the Captains in DS9 or TNG. She also has to define her own mission now; unlike other Captains who are in contact with the Federation. Everything that the Voyager does is reflective on her and only her; not the “higher ups.” Mulgrew does do a great job with the acting (for the most part). She moves more than Brooks certainly. What I mean by that is when the camera is not focused on her she still has facial expressions and gestures that make the role more exciting and realistic. I like that. She is more lively and it fits her role as a Captain on a mission gone awry. I could go on longer, but alas I must cut my post short…I am at work...
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Old May 11 2012, 08:37 PM   #99
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

exodus wrote: View Post
Lipton wrote: View Post
You Will Fail: Mulgrew said in an interview that it was a constant challenge for her to play Janeway. Every day, she told herself she'd crack it, and every day she didn't.

I can't see anyone doing better than her, though. Her character was written with some very unique mannerisms which one couldn't duplicate naturally unless they had those mannerisms themselves. I think just about any actor would have struggled with it.
I agree.
Lots of folks say Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew sucked but has anyone ever seen Patrick Stewart in character and do a scene that involved crying? He's terrible. Picard was nearly Vulcan at times he was so introverted emotionally. I found Brooks and Mulgrew IMO brought color to their characters by giving them more vibrant personalities.
Didn't see a problem with Picard being more introverted emotionally as you put it. But then again perhaps that could be down to the fact that being a Brit we usually frown upon showing too much emotion.
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Old May 11 2012, 09:12 PM   #100
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Qutluch wrote: View Post
I am new to Trek BBS. Actually, I am fairly new to TV and movies in general (despite the fact that I am nearly 30). I never grew up watching TV or movies and my pop culture knowledge is atrocious. My husband decided that he was going to acculturate me starting with Star Trek. I have watched DS9 and TNG. However, since it was my first introduction to Star Trek I feel like I missed a lot of the humor in DS9 and intend to re-watch both DS9 and TNG once I finish the other series. For my first thread, I am going to make a post about each episode that I watch in Voyager. This is my first time viewing Voyager so please feel free to fill me in on any back-stories or information that I am missing.
I'm coming to this thread a bit late, and I know I don't post here as often as I'd like, but welcome to Trek BBS and Trek in general. I love Star Trek and Voyager's my favorite series out of all of them. You'll love it.
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Old May 11 2012, 09:20 PM   #101
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lipton wrote: View Post
You Will Fail: Mulgrew said in an interview that it was a constant challenge for her to play Janeway. Every day, she told herself she'd crack it, and every day she didn't.

I can't see anyone doing better than her, though. Her character was written with some very unique mannerisms which one couldn't duplicate naturally unless they had those mannerisms themselves. I think just about any actor would have struggled with it.
I agree.
Lots of folks say Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew sucked but has anyone ever seen Patrick Stewart in character and do a scene that involved crying? He's terrible. Picard was nearly Vulcan at times he was so introverted emotionally. I found Brooks and Mulgrew IMO brought color to their characters by giving them more vibrant personalities.
Didn't see a problem with Picard being more introverted emotionally as you put it. But then again perhaps that could be down to the fact that being a Brit we usually frown upon showing too much emotion.
Understood.
I guess what Im really trying to get across was maybe not our perception of the character but rather how that character relates to others in their universe. Sisko and Janeway while moody under stress, always came off as approachable to all on their staff. Picard was very distant. Everybody other than the senior staff were terrified to even be next to him.
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Old May 11 2012, 09:21 PM   #102
Qutluch
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

AdmiralSteven wrote: View Post
Qutluch wrote: View Post
I am new to Trek BBS. Actually, I am fairly new to TV and movies in general (despite the fact that I am nearly 30). I never grew up watching TV or movies and my pop culture knowledge is atrocious. My husband decided that he was going to acculturate me starting with Star Trek. I have watched DS9 and TNG. However, since it was my first introduction to Star Trek I feel like I missed a lot of the humor in DS9 and intend to re-watch both DS9 and TNG once I finish the other series. For my first thread, I am going to make a post about each episode that I watch in Voyager. This is my first time viewing Voyager so please feel free to fill me in on any back-stories or information that I am missing.
I'm coming to this thread a bit late, and I know I don't post here as often as I'd like, but welcome to Trek BBS and Trek in general. I love Star Trek and Voyager's my favorite series out of all of them. You'll love it.
Thank you. I am really excited about VOY! Why is it your favorite?
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Old May 11 2012, 09:43 PM   #103
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lipton wrote: View Post
You Will Fail: Mulgrew said in an interview that it was a constant challenge for her to play Janeway. Every day, she told herself she'd crack it, and every day she didn't.

I can't see anyone doing better than her, though. Her character was written with some very unique mannerisms which one couldn't duplicate naturally unless they had those mannerisms themselves. I think just about any actor would have struggled with it.
I agree.
Lots of folks say Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew sucked but has anyone ever seen Patrick Stewart in character and do a scene that involved crying? He's terrible. Picard was nearly Vulcan at times he was so introverted emotionally. I found Brooks and Mulgrew IMO brought color to their characters by giving them more vibrant personalities.
Didn't see a problem with Picard being more introverted emotionally as you put it. But then again perhaps that could be down to the fact that being a Brit we usually frown upon showing too much emotion.
But he was FRENCH, supposedly full of emotion.
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Old May 12 2012, 03:47 AM   #104
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

Fans make comments about how weak Voyager was but eps. like "Deathwish", "Tuvix", "Equinox" & "Endgame" are still being debated to this day, more so than any other eps. in Trek. Voyager gave us all something to come here and talk about. Voyager also introduced Trek to a new audience, new fans bring in new ideas and opinions. I see that as a plus, not a minus.
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Old May 12 2012, 04:05 AM   #105
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Re: My first voyage with Voyager

I just got done watching DS9 for the first time, and frankly I think both shows are on the same level quality-wise. DS9 has some great, great episodes. Off the top of my head, I'll mention ITPL, "Duet," "The Visitor," and definitely a lot more. It had a secondary cast that usually provided some good material in the bad episodes. But it also had a lot of rushed, bad television.

Voyager can be accused of the same (and there are a lot of episodes I won't rewatch), but it also has some great, great episodes. In addition to what exodus said, I'd add "Counterpoint," which is one of my favorite SeriousTrek episodes of all time, and "Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy," which is one of my favorite comedic ones. I won't talk specifics for fear of spoilering Qutluch (and I'd kindly ask the rest of you not to as well), but you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, sometimes they missed the mark, but I find the criticism of Voyager to be really overstated.

For example, it's my crackpot theory that one of the things DS9 was hailed for, "conflict," turns up a lot more on Voyager. Again, not spoiling anything, but especially in the first two seasons there was quite a bit of conflict between main cast members. With all of the Trek shows under my belt, Voyager has more than its fair share of episodes in the rewatch column.
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