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Old May 11 2012, 12:26 AM   #46
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
On their return trip, the Bounty suffered so much damage that it was out of control and had to make a crash landing.
No they crashed because they dropped out of Time Warp in range of the Probe's power drain effect. Hence why the sound the probe makes was then heard in the background.
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Old May 11 2012, 01:04 AM   #47
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Sci wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
On their return trip, the Bounty suffered so much damage that it was out of control and had to make a crash landing.
No they crashed because they dropped out of Time Warp in range of the Probe's power drain effect. Hence why the sound the probe makes was then heard in the background.
"Those scissors work because of the left scissor -- the right one has nothing to do with it!"
Well the evidence suggests that time travel had nothing to do with the Bird-of-Prey's failure after returning to the 23rd century. Nothing in Earth orbit had power.

Christopher is either misremembering or simply over reaching in his assumption.
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Old May 11 2012, 01:11 AM   #48
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

No they crashed because they dropped out of Time Warp in range of the Probe's power drain effect. Hence why the sound the probe makes was then heard in the background.
"Those scissors work because of the left scissor -- the right one has nothing to do with it!"
Well the evidence suggests that time travel had nothing to do with the Bird-of-Prey's failure after returning to the 23rd century. Nothing in Earth orbit had power.
And no ship ever made a slingshot maneuver without it being a perilous, ship-damaging ride.
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Old May 11 2012, 02:01 AM   #49
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

I still don't understand why anyone would want to think that slingshot effects are easy. If they are, why hasn't anyone ever used them since TOS? Why isn't every idiot with a warp ship constantly going back in time to fix a failed relationship or win the lottery and turning the timeline into utter chaos? It is infinitely preferable to treat slingshots as rare and difficult, and real physics provides a very solid justification for that conclusion, as does the canonical evidence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."
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Old May 11 2012, 02:15 AM   #50
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why anyone would want to think that slingshot effects are easy. If they are, why hasn't anyone ever used them since TOS? Why isn't every idiot with a warp ship constantly going back in time to fix a failed relationship or win the lottery and turning the timeline into utter chaos? It is infinitely preferable to treat slingshots as rare and difficult, and real physics provides a very solid justification for that conclusion, as does the canonical evidence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."
Exactly. I mean, if the slingshot maneuver were easy and safe, history would be in flux every year at Pledge Week.
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Old May 11 2012, 04:51 AM   #51
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

We saw the slingshot maneuver three times.

The first was accidental. The ship was still operational. We were not told of any casualties. There were no technical problems that kept them from using the maneuver to slingshot back to the present (theirs, not ours)

The second time we're simply told about it but there is no mention of any problems, damage or injuries. They again return to the present.

The third time they're not in a large starship but a much smaller, apparently older ship. No special preparations are required other than Spock making calculations. We see the crew as they travel backwards in time and, while there are unusual images (dreams? Memories of things that haven't happened yet?) the ship arrives in the past in good condition except for the dilithium crystals decrystalising. Scotty says the problem is because they are Klingon crystals.

SCOTT: Admiral, we have a serious problem. Would you please come down? It's these Klingon crystals, Admiral. The time-travel drained them. They're giving out. De-crystallising.
KIRK: Give me a round figure, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Oh, twenty-four hours, give or take, staying cloaked. After that, Admiral, we're visible, ...and dead in the water. In any case, we won't have enough to break out of Earth's gravity, to say nothing of getting back home.

http://www.chakoteya.net/movies/movie4.html
The solution is to subject them to high energy photons. i.e. - gamma rays. Which is odd since gamma rays are the byproduct of matter/anti-matter annihilation.

It's not that people want to make the slingshot maneuver easy. It's that it's been portrayed as relatively easy in it's appearances. No special preparations at all the first time but that led to a random location in the time stream. Getting home was a matter of making some calculations.

[Engineering]

SCOTT: Pulling away from the sun weakened them, sir. They may blow apart if I reverse.

[Bridge]

KIRK: No choice, Mister Scott.

[Engineering]

SCOTT: Aye, sir.

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Fifty years to go.
SULU: Engines cutting back, sir. No decrease in speed.
SPOCK: Forty, thirty.
KIRK: Never mind, Mister Spock.
(Once again, everyone gets thrown around)
SULU: The engines!

[Engineering]

SCOTT: Engine room to Bridge. Engines are on full reverse. They're buckling! Bridge!

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/21.htm
Considering that it's the first time they've attempted a controlled trip through time it's not surprising that they needed to learn a few things. There's no mention of the engines buckling in the later two instances.

The second trip is simply historical research. Hardly the sort of thing that you'd choose to do for a second trip. You'd think that there would have been a few test flights back first, perhaps a few months or years. Apollo 1 wasn't meant to land on the moon after all. There were specific steps that each flight sought to take, gradually leading up to he landing. If they're already to the point of doing time travel for strictly research reasons it would appear the they have worked out the bugs fairly quickly in the 18 months to two years since the first trip.

There may be very few situations where time travel is actually a predestination paradox. There may be any number of people who do attempt to travel back to try and win the lottery. Those people end up in a new universe (a'la Trek09). SInce they don't come back people would just assume that it didn't work and that they failed. There could be millions of universes existing simply because people time travelled when they weren't supposed to. Our heroes have just been the predestination paradoxes that we've seen. They could be any number of others that we haven't. After all, it's a big universe Mr. Scott.
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Old May 11 2012, 05:19 AM   #52
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Again, all of this is explained in Forgotten History. You're making assumptions that have already been addressed, and you're getting them wrong. Why don't you read the book, and then if you have issues with Christopher's conclusions, discuss them at that time! Right now, you're simply criticizing his ideas without even knowing what they are!
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Old May 11 2012, 05:43 AM   #53
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why anyone would want to think that slingshot effects are easy. If they are, why hasn't anyone ever used them since TOS? Why isn't every idiot with a warp ship constantly going back in time to fix a failed relationship or win the lottery and turning the timeline into utter chaos? It is infinitely preferable to treat slingshots as rare and difficult, and real physics provides a very solid justification for that conclusion, as does the canonical evidence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."
I don't think that anyone wants them to be easy or safe.

But the explanation from Forgotten History doesn't really work within the framework we've seen for time travel in the Trek universe.

You point to Tomorrow is Yesterday as an example. In the episode, the ship isn't so badly damaged that they can't repair it in a time where they have no facilities and this is after an unplanned slingshot. Four hours is the repair estimate from Scott.

Maybe it's the way Starfleet is presented in the book that's the problem...

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Old May 11 2012, 06:40 AM   #54
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Disclaimer: I have not yet read the book.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Even using the Orb of Time simply consisted of opening the ark, looking at it for a few seconds and closing the ark again. Of course that's the TV shorthand version but it's obviously meant to be fairly straightforward.
Remember that the prophets live outside of linear time, and they (likely) have influence over people's orb experiences. It's clear the Orb of Time does actually send people and things into the past (as opposed to just giving them visions of the past).

Given that, I tend to believe the prophets will only actually send people back in situations where the prophets know "beforehand" that those particular trips won't result in changes to the timeline.

That's why we never saw Quark visit the orb of time with last week's Lissepian Lottery numbers tucked into his back pocket. I don't think the Prophets would have allowed that type of trip. Or maybe they would have, if Quark would subsequently have had a series of misadventures that ultimately led to him failing to win the lottery anyway.

To put it into terms we've heard the DTI use, I have a tendency to believe that all temporal displacements caused by the Orb of Time would naturally be "predestination" paradoxes. It wouldn't be capable of anything else, and thus it would be safe to let tourists use it.
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Old May 11 2012, 06:43 AM   #55
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Remember, we have seen the orbs refusing to respond to certain people in certain situations. People have opened arks and looked at orbs from time to time without them going off, and there was that scene in season 7 where the orb very pointedly refused to trigger an experience for Winn. Also Bajorans do seem to treat orb experiences as rare and precious, despite the fact that the Orbs are (apparently) accessible to anyone who wants to make the trip to the temple(s) where they are kept. Perhaps in the vast majority of cases, people don't experience anything when they look upon an orb. Our characters were simply special.
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Old May 11 2012, 07:56 AM   #56
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Disclaimer: I have not yet read the book.

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Even using the Orb of Time simply consisted of opening the ark, looking at it for a few seconds and closing the ark again. Of course that's the TV shorthand version but it's obviously meant to be fairly straightforward.
Remember that the prophets live outside of linear time, and they (likely) have influence over people's orb experiences. It's clear the Orb of Time does actually send people and things into the past (as opposed to just giving them visions of the past).

Given that, I tend to believe the prophets will only actually send people back in situations where the prophets know "beforehand" that those particular trips won't result in changes to the timeline.

That's why we never saw Quark visit the orb of time with last week's Lissepian Lottery numbers tucked into his back pocket. I don't think the Prophets would have allowed that type of trip. Or maybe they would have, if Quark would subsequently have had a series of misadventures that ultimately led to him failing to win the lottery anyway.

To put it into terms we've heard the DTI use, I have a tendency to believe that all temporal displacements caused by the Orb of Time would naturally be "predestination" paradoxes. It wouldn't be capable of anything else, and thus it would be safe to let tourists use it.
As I said earlier, if you travel to the past and return to your same present then it's a predestination paradox. If you create a new universe as we saw in the latest movie then you weren't predestined to do so. The Orb of Time simply works for one and not the other - i.e. it is unable to create a new universe.

I imagine that the orbs don't actually have any innate powers. Rather, they simply channel different aspects of the Prophets themselves. Think of them as being a 4-D projection of a 5, 6 or 7-D being. The orbs may just be how the Prophets appear in our limited frame of reference.
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Old May 11 2012, 10:16 AM   #57
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I still don't understand why anyone would want to think that slingshot effects are easy. If they are, why hasn't anyone ever used them since TOS? Why isn't every idiot with a warp ship constantly going back in time to fix a failed relationship or win the lottery and turning the timeline into utter chaos? It is infinitely preferable to treat slingshots as rare and difficult, and real physics provides a very solid justification for that conclusion, as does the canonical evidence in "Tomorrow is Yesterday."
A far simpler reason that this does not happen is probably because few people know of this capability. It seems reasonable to conclude that Starfleet immediately classified the information. Given what happened with Gary 7 on the second trip through time and the fact that they nearly changed history, its equally reasonable that Starfleet put a stop to that experiment as well. The fact that Voyager, during "Future's End," never considers a simple slingshot to go home suggests that Janeway may not be aware of that ability. The fact that NO ONE mentions it, suggest that it is not common knowledge even in Starfleet.
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Old May 11 2012, 10:49 AM   #58
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

FWIW (and, different continuity, I know), there was a Federation-run seminar for "temporally displaced persons" in one of the Shatnerverse novels. Thousands attended. Kirk was shocked. It was very amusing.
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Old May 11 2012, 10:58 AM   #59
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

Wouldn't the reason be something as simple as, The writers of DSN in which that line appeared where just paying their respects to TOS?

Onscreen evidence seems to indicate that Kirk was one of the key figures from that era of the Federation. In much the same way we look back on signifigant people today, do you think for example the RN has forgotten about Admiral Nelson?

Even one of the DTI Investigators in the DSN, as much as said that he would have wanted to meet him as well. Despite his record.
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Old May 11 2012, 02:24 PM   #60
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Re: DTI: Why is Kirk considered the worst violator?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't think that anyone wants them to be easy or safe.

But the explanation from Forgotten History doesn't really work within the framework we've seen for time travel in the Trek universe.

You point to Tomorrow is Yesterday as an example. In the episode, the ship isn't so badly damaged that they can't repair it in a time where they have no facilities and this is after an unplanned slingshot. Four hours is the repair estimate from Scott.
But I did explain in the book why the Enterprise was uniquely able to withstand the stresses of a slingshot, due to the alterations its engine underwent as a result of the temporal accident in "The Naked Time." A different ship probably wouldn't have survived at all.


Maybe it's the way Starfleet is presented in the book that's the problem...

You misunderstood.



chrinFinity wrote: View Post
Remember that the prophets live outside of linear time, and they (likely) have influence over people's orb experiences. It's clear the Orb of Time does actually send people and things into the past (as opposed to just giving them visions of the past).
No, the Orb pretty clearly did send the Defiant back to Space Station K-7.


That's why we never saw Quark visit the orb of time with last week's Lissepian Lottery numbers tucked into his back pocket. I don't think the Prophets would have allowed that type of trip. Or maybe they would have, if Quark would subsequently have had a series of misadventures that ultimately led to him failing to win the lottery anyway.
The simpler explanation is that the Bajorans would never allow Quark access to the Orb in the first place. I'm sure it's kept under tight security. Remember, in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night," the only reason Kira was allowed to access the Orb of Time is because the Emissary made a special request on her behalf. It's not like just anyone can walk in off the street and use it.



Gotham Central wrote: View Post
A far simpler reason that this does not happen is probably because few people know of this capability. It seems reasonable to conclude that Starfleet immediately classified the information.
Well, yes, and I established not just in Watching the Clock but as far back as SCE: Aftermath that most time-travel incidents are classified. That is, there are probably some time-travel incidents that the general public is aware of, but for the most part the DTI and Starfleet try to keep too much knowledge of specific incidents from getting out, so that the public thinks it's even more difficult and uncommon than it actually is.

But really, in an open society with freedom of speech, the press, and scientific inquiry, there are limits on how thorough a cover-up can be. If time travel really were simple, then not only would enough people stumble across it that the secret couldn't possibly be kept, but the laws of physics themselves would reveal how easy it was. You can't conceal the fundamental workings of the universe without suppressing scientific inquiry altogether, because all physics is interconnected. So it's a non-starter to propose that time travel is easy but the public is convinced that it's impossible. That would never work except in some brutal tyranny. It's more likely that time travel is difficult and dangerous, and the public knows it's possible but difficult and dangerous, but enough temporal incidents are classified that the public is unaware of how often the theory becomes practice.


Given what happened with Gary 7 on the second trip through time and the fact that they nearly changed history, its equally reasonable that Starfleet put a stop to that experiment as well.
Read the book.


The fact that Voyager, during "Future's End," never considers a simple slingshot to go home suggests that Janeway may not be aware of that ability. The fact that NO ONE mentions it, suggest that it is not common knowledge even in Starfleet.
It's unlikely that she's unaware of the theory, since we've had the theory since 1974. It would presumably be more a question of whether she believed it was practical for Voyager to make the attempt successfully.

In the Millennium trilogy, it was suggested that the only way to ensure returning to your own timeline is to get back the same way you left, i.e. follow the established "Feynman curve" back to your starting point. Otherwise, you could return to your own time but in a different, altered timeline. So maybe the reason Janeway assumed Braxton's timeship was their only way back was because the timeship was responsible for their displacement in the first place. (Although that isn't quite compatible with "Tomorrow is Yesterday," since the initial slingshot was around the Black Star and the return slingshot was around Sol. Still, they did both involve the Enterprise's engines, so maybe that's the common element. There's also Archer's time journey in "Shockwave," where his return journey was via a different mechanism, but the Suliban's temporal communicator could've been a "beacon" anchoring him to the timeline he wanted.)
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