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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 28 2012, 06:01 AM   #1246
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

That or the Federation has a ridiculously lax criminal justice system.
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Old April 28 2012, 06:23 AM   #1247
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
That or the Federation has a ridiculously lax criminal justice system.
when kai winn got a bajoran starfleet cadet to try kill vedek bareil , she was taken away without ever implicating winn.

You can bet the cardassians would have got the truth, none of this softly softly approach like the federation
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Old April 28 2012, 04:08 PM   #1248
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Neela wasn't a Starfleet cadet; she was a member of the Bajoran militia...just FYI.

I don't think torture, like the Cardassians would've employed, would be necessary, but certainly some unpleasantness (psychological manipulation, etc.) should be allowed.
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Old April 28 2012, 10:14 PM   #1249
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

her working on the station made me initially think starfleet, you are obviously right of course
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Old May 8 2012, 04:01 PM   #1250
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Season 4 Review

Graphs!



The average score for this season is 6.4, the highest score I've given to a single season of Star Trek, but still lower than the scores awarded to the final three seasons of B5. This is a slight step up from seasons 2 and 3 (which were virtually tied), but it's not a huge increase in quality. The trendline shows a slight decrease in quality over time, but with The Visitor in the first half of the season and The Muse in the second half, the season is more or less consistent.



I only rated two episodes this season below average, a new Trek record, but still one more than B5's fourth season. Sadly, while there's a number of good and great episodes in this season, I only rated one as a classic, The Visitor, which is part of the reason why this season's score is only a small step up. A substantial number of episodes had a score of six, so while the show is getting better there is still room for improvement.

I rated two episodes this season below average, three were average, and twenty were above average.
Best episode: The Visitor
Worst episode: The Muse


The Writers


Hans Beimler joins the writing staff this season, otherwise it's the same four guys from season 3.



Wolfe finally wins a season with a score of 6.875 from his eight episodes. In fact, this is the first time that he has managed to beat the season average, so he has had quite a good year. Next up is Moore with a score of 6.6 from five episodes, which is a drop from his work in season 4. Next up is Behr with a score of 6.5 from his 8 episodes, while Beimler has a score of 5.75 from four episodes. In last place is Echevarria who gets an average score of 5 from three episode, which he can blame on The Muse.



Fields lead (7.571) has widened due to Ron Moore's slight decline in season 4, dropping his average to 6.9. Echevarria also drops some, down to 6.125. Wolfe and Beimler both average out to a score of 6, but Wolfe has an edge as he has considerably more episodes under his belt. Behr's score increases to 5.833, while Piller remains in last place on 5.5.


Statistics

Runabouts Lost: 4 (+1)
Form of... : 28 (+13)
Wormhole in Peril: 4 (+0)
Sykonee's Counter: 19 (+3)
Stupid French Things: 3 (+2)

Season 1 Average: 5.211
Season 2 Average: 6.231
Season 3 Average: 6.192
Season 4 Average: 6.4
Overall Average: 6.062

Voyager Average After 4 Seasons: 4.914
Enterprise Overall Average: 5.206
Babylon 5 Average After 4 Seasons: 6.079


In Summation

Season 4 is often presented as being a major turning point for the show, the point at which is truly became great, but upon rewatching it that is not the impression I am left with. This is a small step up from season 3, the the number of below average episodes is astonishingly low for a Star Trek series, but the show is still struggling to reach the highs it needs to. The season was dominated by three star reviews, episodes that are enjoyable but not memorable, on balance they're positive but they still contain flaws. The show has broken away from the balance of good and bad episodes that dominated the other two Trek shows that I reviewed, but it still needs to convert mostly enjoyable episodes into something special.

The show is also struggling somewhat when it comes to serialised storytelling. In the back half of this season I had to deduct points from three separate episodes for screwing up continuity in some way, which is surprising for a show that's commended for this kind of thing. This is an awkward stage in DS9's development, the writers are clearly interested in developing story arcs and having major events, but they're still somewhat comfortable with the TNG format and they're not doing enough to break away from it.

So, which character "won" this season? Kira was clearly the best character in the first two seasons, then Odo took her place in season 3. But as the Dominion threat took a back seat this season, Odo's role also diminished and season 4 was more balanced across the ensemble. The introduction of Worf shook things up a bit, but he fits the show very well and he already has good chemistry with the rest of the cast. He didn't dominate the series the same way Seven did when she was introduced on Voyager, but he did get some additional screen time to facilitate the adjustment. I did notice that technobabble is less prominent on the show which means that Jadzia and O'Brien, though perhaps getting less screen-time, are being treated more like characters and less like officers, which is good. If I had to give an edge to a single character this season, it would be Sisko. The shaved head completed Sisko's visual transition, but it also affected Avery's performance for the better. He appears more comfortable and commanding, and while he doesn't dominate the show in the same way that Picard dominated TNG, he has become a more active participant in the stories. So, in my opinion, this was the year of The Sisko.

Now we head into the final year of the Dominion Cold War, the much praised season 5. Is it much of a step up from season 4? I guess I'll find out...
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Old May 8 2012, 04:23 PM   #1251
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

To be fair, a couple of the 6 and 7 point episodes were actually 8 and 9 points but got a whole star deducted from them. So those episodes were actually a lot more memorable than it seems from the numbers. Personally I would probably have rated Season 4 higher than you as a whole; I thought the only below average episode was The Muse. (I am okay with the µ episode and would probably have given it 5 or 6)
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Old May 8 2012, 04:29 PM   #1252
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
To be fair, a couple of the 6 and 7 point episodes were actually 8 and 9 points but got a whole star deducted from them. So those episodes were actually a lot more memorable than it seems from the numbers. Personally I would probably have rated Season 4 higher than you as a whole; I thought the only below average episode was The Muse. (I am okay with the µ episode and would probably have given it 5 or 6)
Agree with you there, by TheGodBen's rating systems there were three of four episodes which were either 8 or 9 points but future continuity meant two points were deducted. I'll say this for season 4; it is an incredibly balanced season and one which is almost consistently very good. Season 5 may have a higher average but the ratings are more likely to go all over the place...
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Old May 8 2012, 04:37 PM   #1253
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
The introduction of Worf shook things up a bit, but he fits the show very well and he already has good chemistry with the rest of the cast. He didn't dominate the series the same way Seven did when she was introduced on Voyager, but he did get some additional screen time to facilitate the adjustment.
Definitely agree with this, and I'm one of those that was lured over to DS9 from TNG because of Worf. When Seven came to VOY it became the Seven show. When Worf came to DS9, he fit in quite well on the Island of Misfits Officers. And to me "fitting in" doesn't mean he became everyone's BFF, but that his character worked well. I wish they had done more Worf and Odo, cause I really liked their "I don't like you even though we have a ton in common" dynamic.

But, by definition, by adding one more character but not adding anymore episodes to the season means that there's less screen time to go around. Ironically, I think it's Dax's characted who will suffer the most from Worf's introduction. When it initially happened way back when I figured Kira would be the one to lose out with their roles on the station being so similar (cause, essentially, Sisko has two first officers now) but Dax kind of loses her place as the "resident Klingon" when he comes aboard and end ups being nothing more than his sidekick for the rest of her time on the station.

(Not that any of this is necessarily a bad thing, I think she was probably the weakest regular character anyway)
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Old May 8 2012, 05:03 PM   #1254
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
I wish they had done more Worf and Odo, cause I really liked their "I don't like you even though we have a ton in common" dynamic.
Yeah, that was awesome. Both are definitely 'opposites attract' types, so logically similarities repulse. They had some great moments where they almost sounded like friends, though, like when they were discussing how best to be antisocial and prevent people from visiting, and in Broken Link when Worf was trying to convince everyone not to visit Odo.
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Old May 8 2012, 08:24 PM   #1255
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
They had some great moments where they almost sounded like friends, though, like when they were discussing how best to be antisocial and prevent people from visiting.
Yeah, I just loved that scene. They could have had a bromance to rival Miles and Julian
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Old May 9 2012, 02:07 AM   #1256
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

agree with apenpaaps assesment.

I also find comparing it to b5 somewhat unfair , both were similar in lots of ways but totally unique.
The season was by far stronger than the previous ones and the level of increase you awarded is well short of the difference in quality in my opinion, The gap in rating should have been bigger.

The muse was the worst show of that season.
As for The visitor...yes it was a class show but its your typical standard winner that most would pick, well written etc.. but for me the homefront/paradise lost & way of the warrior are more important to the series, and are among many outstanding episodes of that season
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Old May 9 2012, 03:50 AM   #1257
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

gazomg wrote: View Post
The muse was the worst show of that season.
As for The visitor...yes it was a class show but its your typical standard winner that most would pick, well written etc.. but for me the homefront/paradise lost & way of the warrior are more important to the series, and are among many outstanding episodes of that season
I agree, I tend to think in the overall scheme of things, "The Visitor" is a tad overrated. Kind of like TNG's "The Inner Light." (sacrilege, I know)

Though I think it's funny that both the best and the worst are Jake episodes, and the best being the one where Lofton isn't playing Jake. Hmm...
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Old May 9 2012, 04:15 AM   #1258
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

is jake like welsley then ?
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Old May 9 2012, 07:24 AM   #1259
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

My favorite Worf\Odo scene is when Worf comes into Odos office to complain about security issues and says "this would not have happened on the Enterprise" to which Odo replies "Oh really?" and proceeds to pick up a padd and list off various Enterprise security breaches. The reason I love this scene is the fact that Odo had a list of Worfs mistakes sitting on his desk just waiting to be thrown in Worfs face.
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Old May 9 2012, 03:57 PM   #1260
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Re: TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

apenpaap wrote: View Post
To be fair, a couple of the 6 and 7 point episodes were actually 8 and 9 points but got a whole star deducted from them. So those episodes were actually a lot more memorable than it seems from the numbers.
That's a fair point and it does mess with the graphs a little bit, but I think that including those deductions in the season average score is fair. But yeah, Hard Time should have been a 9.

gazomg wrote: View Post
I also find comparing it to b5 somewhat unfair , both were similar in lots of ways but totally unique.
I don't see how it's unfair, both were sci-fi shows that aired around the same time and had very similar concepts, I'd say that DS9 actually has more in common with B5 than it does with Voyager.

It's interesting that B5's average has just overtaken DS9's by a fraction of a percent, which means that I think both shows are about level. But because DS9 had a longer run than B5 it has a good chance of catching up once B5 is finished in season 5.

The season was by far stronger than the previous ones and the level of increase you awarded is well short of the difference in quality in my opinion, The gap in rating should have been bigger.
I'm surprised that the gap isn't bigger myself, but I think it may may be the case that I had underestimated seasons 2 and 3 and their scores were higher than I imagined they would be. I was expecting those seasons to be in the 5.9 region but they both came out around 6.2. Before starting this thread I would have expected season 4 to come out around 6.3-6.5, so it's about where I originally would have expected it to be, but seasons 2 and 3 surprised me and I was half-expecting season 4 to do the same.

As for The visitor...yes it was a class show but its your typical standard winner that most would pick, well written etc.. but for me the homefront/paradise lost & way of the warrior are more important to the series, and are among many outstanding episodes of that season
A few years ago I might have agreed, but those episodes, though a more important part of the series arc, do have issues, particularly Paradise Lost. But even though I've seen The Visitor 6 or 7 times already, it still managed to bring me to the brink of tears, and there's something special about a show that can do that. It may be a boring, safe choice, but there's a reason why it's so often picked as one of the best episodes the series had to offer.

BruntFCA wrote: View Post
My favorite Worf\Odo scene is when Worf comes into Odos office to complain about security issues and says "this would not have happened on the Enterprise" to which Odo replies "Oh really?" and proceeds to pick up a padd and list off various Enterprise security breaches. The reason I love this scene is the fact that Odo had a list of Worfs mistakes sitting on his desk just waiting to be thrown in Worfs face.
One thing I liked about that scene was that all those incidents actually happened on TNG, none of them were invented by the DS9 writers to make Worf look bad. It's a nice nod to continuity between the two series.
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