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Old April 3 2012, 06:35 PM   #31
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
And has it occurred to you that other races like the Vulcans and Andorians might've preferred serving aboard Earth designed ships because they did not wish to give up design secrets and technology of their own vessels?
In that case it would make more sense to SERVE on their own vessels in the first place. Why would they volunteer for duty on Earth-designed ships when there are some perfectly good (and probably more advanced) Vulcan and Andorian ships in their own fleet?

Actually, I've been saying for a couple of years that the alien contingent we've seen in Starfleet is probably an immigrant population: aliens who just happen to live on Earth or have dual citizenship between Earth and some other Federation member. The best two examples of this are Nog and Worf: the former because he lives on a space station administered by the Federation, and the latter is an alien raised by human parents. Deanna Troi and Spock are both half human, and Ro Laren is a refugee who evidently fled to Earth (or human-controlled territory) from the Cardassians. Otherwise, very few non-humans seem to have joined Starfleet without some prior political/social ties to Earth.

It's pretty likely IMO that Starfleet is the most prolific of the Federation's space force, but hardly the ONLY such organization, even if it is the most important in wartime.
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Old April 12 2012, 04:27 PM   #32
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

B.J. wrote: View Post
Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
I always the the Klingon BOP, Galor class, and D,Deridex Warbird would look good in federation Liveries.
There's a painting by Andrew Probert (wish I could find a link) depicting the launch of the 1701-D, flanked by several other ships, mostly Constitution & Excelsior classes. But one of the ships is a Klingon D7/K'tinga design updated with TNG Federation details and has a Starfleet livery. I'm pretty sure this painting was done early on in the TNG production, before we nailed down the fact that the Klingons were still a separate empire.
As far as the series bible was concerned, the Klingons were Federation members until late Season 2. The thinking went that having former enemies as partners would illustrate just how far the Federation had come since the Original Series and Films (Worf wasn't a senior officer in the first season, but he was a main cast member because he represented "diversity"), but the temptation and opportunity for Klingon shenanigans turned out to be too great for the writers to follow through.

The curious thing about Starfleet and it's relationship with Fed races/members is that no single real-life organization has the variety of roles or scope of jurisdiction that SF is shown/thought to have.. We're all familiar with the notion that it's part USGS, part USNavy, but it's really confounding when you find that it's also part CIA and FBI.
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Last edited by USS Mariner; April 12 2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Old April 16 2012, 02:58 AM   #33
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

^ And Coast Guard, and Space Program, and DARPA, and the CDC, and the Peace Corps.

I'm thinking maybe different Federation members specialize in different aspects of Starfleet's role and maybe humans are merely over-represented in the exploration missions because we're the only ones stupid enough to probe that far into space without any backup.
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Old April 23 2012, 08:51 AM   #34
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
And has it occurred to you that other races like the Vulcans and Andorians might've preferred serving aboard Earth designed ships because they did not wish to give up design secrets and technology of their own vessels?
Who's to say that most Federation starships are of "Earth" design?

Most Federation starships look to me like they have a mixed lineage -- a saucer descended from Earth and/or Tellarite designs; a cylindrical engineering hull that looks descended from Andorian starships; a dorsal hull and vertical alignment that looks like it's descended from Vulcan ships.
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Old April 23 2012, 08:54 AM   #35
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

typically i'd guess it's because it's destinctive as being Federation...

You don't need to double check the information after seeing the ship, just at a glance you can tell it's Starfleet you're dealing with and not the Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians or whoever... The crew and captains are obviously proud to be serving in Starfleet, so having a unique ship design that stands out as being solely Starfleet makes sense in a galaxy filled with warp capable ships...

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Old April 27 2012, 12:04 AM   #36
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Timo wrote: View Post
...Also, while the titular ship of Star Trek:Enterprise looks completely unlike her Vulcan counterparts, she was supposedly designed with Vulcan help. For all we know, the traditional "Starfleet look" of saucer hulls is actually a Vulcan invention, while two nacelles is a generic way to get warp (also popular with e.g. Klingons, Romulans and Orions) and rarely worth swapping for Vulcan or Ferengi style configurations.

Alternately, we could claim that Archer's Enterprise was built with Andorian or Tellarite know-how, specifically so that Earthlings could thumb their noses at Vulcans. That would be something of a conspiracy theory, though, as Archer himself didn't appear versed in Andorians or Tellarites. But choose some other race eager to trade with the primitive Earthlings in the early 22nd century, exchanging worthless baubles such as starship designs for priceless treasures from the natives such as local booze.

Personally, though, I rather disliked the ENT idea that ships of the classic Starfleet silhouette would have been introduced before the Federation was. I'd much rather have seen them as the result of cooperation between different cultures. With their multiple haphazardly connected components, they do look as if designed by a committee!

Timo Saloniemi
Your post reminds me of that ship from the Enterprise episode entitled "Storm Front, Part 2", one of many ships that flew out to meet the returning heroes. I think the only identification of it anywhere was by the art department as "Sarajevo, Elite Observation Craft". It may have been a John Eaves design. It certainly has his asthetic.
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Old April 27 2012, 02:03 AM   #37
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
Wouldn't you think the feds would be using designs by other races?
Having a common design aesthetic across your fleet gives the following advantages:
  • You only have to train your cadets once
  • You can stock modular, interchangeable parts
  • You can leverage economies of scale
  • Your software will be more reliable if there's only a limited variety of hardware it has to support (the Apple paradigm) -- and bugs will get fixed faster because everyone will be using the same hardware/software, exposing bugs sooner
  • Starship kitbashes become practical (at least by TV series logic... nevermind that the turboshafts have to be widened and moved a couple meters to line up between the Intrepid-class primary hull and Constitution-class secondary hull...)
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Old April 27 2012, 07:37 AM   #38
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

"Sarajevo, Elite Observation Craft". It may have been a John Eaves design. It certainly has his asthetic.
This ship?

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...edalus_532.JPG

Here's Eaves' own dirt on it (as in "quick and dirty"):

http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/...-vessel-of-54/

I sort of like the idea that the first few decades of Starfleet would have seen lots of such "nonstandard" designs in use, some being merely repainted ships from the member cultures, some making use of member culture design philosophies in newbuilding. As the result, all the fanfic ideas on old ships would be true - for a brief while. It would simply be pared down to the saucer-and-nacelles with time, perhaps for the above reasons, perhaps simply because Starfleet wanted its own aesthetic for sheer promotional reasons.

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Old April 28 2012, 10:13 AM   #39
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
We see examples of this in today's military, even the U.S. uses European harrier jets and such. Wouldn't you think the feds would be using designs by other races? maybe selling surplus mirandas to the klingons or ferengi?
The British Harrier Jump Jet was rather unique in that it was the only operational VSTOL fighter. As other planes built by the US didn't have this feaure it was more a case of ours can't do this so we will use an allies which can. Of course the Harrier is in the process of being replaced by the F-35 Lightning II. Which had multi-national partners involved in is development. With the US being the primary, the UK a Level 1 partner, with various other nations falling into Level 2 and 3
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Old April 28 2012, 12:14 PM   #40
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

I have to wonder, why would they need to?

When you have the knowledge and technology from 150+ species at your disposal to design and build ships, why go elsewhere?

So the general ship design follows early Earth Starfleet principles (who themselves managed to look forwar din time 200 years to get inspiration), but that is just the ships we're seen on screen. Who knows how many classes out there and how different they look?

It's about substance, not style.
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Old April 29 2012, 12:06 AM   #41
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

USS Mariner wrote: View Post
We're all familiar with the notion that it's part USGS, part USNavy, but it's really confounding when you find that it's also part CIA and FBI.
And also somewhat the Bureau of Mines.

The way the Enterprise flew into a ion storm in Court Martial, reminds me of the USAF flying into hurricanes for scientific research. And the Enterprise visiting various science outposts like (again) the USAF tending to Antarctic bases.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Of course the Harrier is in the process of being replaced by the F-35 Lightning II.
The British stopped flying the Harrier some 16 months ago and resently sold over 70 of them surplus to the US Marine Corp, who will strip them down and reassemble about 25-30 into their night attack version. The UK will get their F35s in 8 years and will be without for the interval, the USMC will get their F35s in 4 years and didn't want to go without.

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Old May 3 2012, 12:15 AM   #42
Irishman
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Timo wrote: View Post
"Sarajevo, Elite Observation Craft". It may have been a John Eaves design. It certainly has his asthetic.
This ship?

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...edalus_532.JPG

Here's Eaves' own dirt on it (as in "quick and dirty"):

http://johneaves.wordpress.com/2009/...-vessel-of-54/

I sort of like the idea that the first few decades of Starfleet would have seen lots of such "nonstandard" designs in use, some being merely repainted ships from the member cultures, some making use of member culture design philosophies in newbuilding. As the result, all the fanfic ideas on old ships would be true - for a brief while. It would simply be pared down to the saucer-and-nacelles with time, perhaps for the above reasons, perhaps simply because Starfleet wanted its own aesthetic for sheer promotional reasons.

Timo Saloniemi
Yup, that's the one. When Doug Drexler and John Eaves started posting orthos of their 3D models from the show on their respective blogs, I half-expected (and hoped) to see two ships that never seemed to get that treatment - the Sarajevo was one and the Conestoga was the other.

Anyone have any insight if those ever got posted as orthographic projections?
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Old May 3 2012, 12:22 AM   #43
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
It's about substance, not style.
I sort of agree, sort of disagree with you.

Where I agree is in the beginning of the UFP, a new polity projecting power, unified designs would matter more. Acting to limit these unified designs would have been a comparatively less-sophisticated technological knowledge than they had 70-100 years later (in the TNG to post-Dominion War period). Where I disagree is this - later it would become more about style and less about substance (because the basics of starship function have been nailed down and mastered centuries before). Look at cars today. The basics haven't changed much. The form factor to a degree has been locked down. Its function is long known. The difference in the style. Preferences about the ship designs notwithstanding, look at the stylistic differences between the E-nil and the E-J. By the time of the Enterprise-J and Daniels, they'd moved so far beyond what a basic starship could do, I'm sure the only safe place to take Archer on the ship (from a standpoint of not screwing up your own future timeline) WAS that viewport he observed that battle from.

Allowing him to see or interact with anything more would contaminate the timeline (using their own terminology).
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Old May 3 2012, 01:16 AM   #44
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

The NX does look a lot like "future" Starfleet craft, particularly the Akira class.

At least, from the outside; on the inside it's completely different.
So who knows?
Maybe the 23rd-24th century Starfleet ship owe their aesthetics to humans but their modern (Galaxy/Sovereign/Defiant/Intrepid) warp core technology is of Vulcan design, the weapon systems of Andorian origin, the turbolifts a Tellarite invention (given their propensity to initiate arguments between the occupants, it's likely)...

Of all founding Federation members, humans seem to me to be those to care most about appearance: Vulcans would probably consider it a secondary concern at best; Andorians would gladly sacrifice looks for functionality/armament... and son on.

At least, that's how I rationalise Starfleet's ship design not being purely earth-centric :P.
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Old May 15 2012, 09:04 PM   #45
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Re: Whay doesn't starfleet use ships by other races.

Tribble puncher wrote: View Post
We see examples of this in today's military, even the U.S. uses European harrier jets and such. Wouldn't you think the feds would be using designs by other races? maybe selling surplus mirandas to the klingons or ferengi?

The U.S. Marines use the Harrier because it is a proven airframe. Also McDonald Douglas built the Harrier under license from the British firm that built it.

The U.S. Navy did not at first believe a VSTOL jet could operate from it Ambibious Transport Carriers (which are roughly the same size as the Essex class carries of World War II - Today the Intrepid and Hornet are musems)

After the Falklands war the British Navy proved that they could operate and deploy Harries from their small flat tops.

As a result since they were already a proven weapons delievery system. The U.S. Military (namely the Navy and Marines) purchased and then built their own for use on the Amphibious carriers. The ships can only carry six jets and will be replaced with the new F-35 Strike Fighter that can also do VSTOL and go supersonic whic the current planes cant.

As for Starfleet using other coulter's ships why would they just like the U.S. Navy does not today yet we sell them to other nations when the Navy deems the ships have become oppsolite.

Since Starfleet is comprised of races from all over the federation there is no need for a member race to build their own fleet. Instead there "spacemen" would be assigned to Starfleet ships.
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