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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 2 2012, 12:09 PM   #91
Sjaddix
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

I think the analogy to Iran is pretty accurate.

True democracy is no prevention on slavery.
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Old May 2 2012, 12:18 PM   #92
Timo
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

..see how easy it was for them to take it up again at one point-at the word of a delusional religious figure. That's problematic, I think.
I'd say it's pretty rational. How many other cultures can say that their old ways have been proven by hundreds of millennia of practice? A minor aberration such as the Cardassian occupation shouldn't get in the way of a good thing.

If Bajor is to provide anything worthwhile to the UFP in joining, it ought to be its expertise in such things. It's not much of a producer of warp drives or beer, after all.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 2 2012, 12:22 PM   #93
Sjaddix
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

i thought they provide the wormhole. its basically owned by Bajor. making it a major trade route and strategic position.
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Old May 2 2012, 12:23 PM   #94
Skywalker
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

The Federation wanted Bajor before they even knew about the wormhole.

Last edited by Skywalker; May 2 2012 at 12:41 PM.
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Old May 2 2012, 12:37 PM   #95
Timo
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

And there they probably just wanted a world close to Cardassia, and mainly wanted it so that nobody else would take it.

But the Feds had the wormhole all right even when Bajor wasn't a member... If we think of how a culture gets into the Federation in general, exotic things like oppressive traditions are probably more a plus than a minus.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 2 2012, 12:46 PM   #96
Sjaddix
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

yeah but the wormhole makes bajor a lot more valuable. especially since cardassia is now living of federation aid and is not a threat.
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Old May 2 2012, 01:04 PM   #97
Timo
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Indeed. But regarding these postwar developments... Is the wormhole good for anything nowadays? I know the novels postulate it was reopened, but the show itself doesn't quite establish this. Even if the Prophets agreed to continuing traffic, there might be nothing on the other side to go to. No doubt the Dominion would have annexed all the space there and would not look kindly to Alpha Quadrant people coming through.

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Old May 2 2012, 01:37 PM   #98
Sjaddix
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Hmm, I assume its reopened but either way you have to guard on the off chance that the Dominion decides to march back for a second strike. Still I think from the storytelling prospective it would be reopened eventually.
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Old May 7 2012, 02:38 AM   #99
Xhiandra
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

I'm sorry, but... did you guys watch the same show I did? I don't get where this idea of a Federation with loose adherence criteriae and a self-serving agenda comes from.

The Federation is nothing if not a set of ideals:

- The Federation always tries its hardest to resolve situations non-violently, particularly but not exclusively Picard.

- All main captains (and members of their crews) express disgust towards slavery, IIRC.
Sure, it could just be a personal opinion, but given how everyone seems to agree, it's a lot more likely that slavery is considered abhorrent by Federation culture, if not by law.

- The Prime Directive.

- Several episodes mention the membership application process being lengthy.

- There's that TNG ep where they have to review the case of part of a planet applying to join the Federation... they're eventually turned down, but not on the basis of not having a single-world govt (Feds were aware of that fact initially), but on the basis of their rather uncouth* resolution of Picard & Crusher's abduction.

*i lenjoy using British Understatements.

- Values of freedom (of self-determination, speech, the press and of religion) would seem important as well, though I'm too tired to look for specific examples.
I can think of one at the top of my head, though: Jake expects to be free to report from dominion-controlled DS9 (Weyoun disagrees, favouring propaganda).

- I forgot this one. And some others. Pretend I added more relevant examples.



Anyway, as for Bajorans, they're primarily an allegory... but an-ever changing one.
Early on, there's obviously the post-WW2/post-Nuremberg allegory (Cardassians=Germans; Bajorans=Jews; Federation=allies), but later on Bajorans are mostly used as an allegory of either Iran or US fundies, sometimes even dark-ages Europe, be it oppression of sub-sects (the cult of the pah-wraiths is immediatly labelled "evil") or the existence of taboo areas (the firecaves).


BritishSeaPower: you are right, but that is merely a consequence of theocracy: there can be no religious freedom under one. Apostasy in particular is oft treated with utmost violence.
History taught us that, current events teach us that, reason teches us that as well.


Oh, and this is only very tangentially related to the discussion at hand, but where do some people get the idea that a democracy can only be republican?
Is just provocation or a real belief?
I'll assume the latter for now and invite whoever claimed monarchs were incompatible with democracy to look across the Atlantic
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Old May 7 2012, 02:49 AM   #100
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Regarding monarchy, the question would be whether we're talking "constitutional monarchy" or actual rule by the aristocracy. Those are two different things.
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Old May 7 2012, 03:23 AM   #101
T'Girl
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
... or US fundies ...
And you were doing so well, until you destroyed all your credibility with this.

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Old May 7 2012, 12:24 PM   #102
Xhiandra
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Wait, what?

I don't understand the confrontational tone and I really don't see your point, there.
Care to specify or was it just ad hominem time?
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Old May 7 2012, 05:01 PM   #103
CommanderRaytas
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

DAYoung wrote: View Post
Article 563.3.2. of the Federation Charter:

"Supernatural smugness is considered legitimate grounds for rejection from the Federation."

Sorry, Bajor. Ensign Ro is still welcome on DS9, though.
Ro is an unreliable, self-righteous liar and traitor (not to mention a complete bitch, but that's my opinion). Bajor in the Federation? Yeah, if Kira is anything to go by. Ro? Hell no.

/rant



As an avid supporter of the Cardassian Union and a philologist, hostile rants are my speciality.
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Old May 7 2012, 06:35 PM   #104
T'Girl
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
... was it just ad hominem time?
Fundie is a pejorative for fundamentalists, maybe spent the extra second and spell it out. Or was it your intent to be fashionable derogatory towards others?

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Old May 7 2012, 07:28 PM   #105
Timo
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Re: I wouldn't want Bajor in the Federation if I was a Fed

Umm, what's wrong with using a pejorative for people you deeply loathe? That's sort of the point.

Or are you of the once strangely common conviction that it's okay to fire-bomb and bayonet Japanese women and children to death as long as you don't call them Japs?

There's no real point about trying to find something good and commendable (or even tolerable) about fundamentalism, or pretending to be polite around it. If somebody deserves a crowbar across the face, he ain't gonna get called Honorable Sir.

Timo Saloniemi
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