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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

 
 
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Old April 26 2012, 10:16 PM   #16
137th Gebirg
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

The Dominion wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I'm pretty sure Cain was relatively "normal" prior to the attack. Sure, she was a go-getter. She rose in the ranks early in her career. Assuming she rose on merit alone, potential nefarious reasons aside, she probably was an excellent Commander. Then, two things happened - the sneak attack and the realization that Gina was a Six. The former hardened her into battle mode. We could assume this is something she trained for. The Gina thing is what put her over the edge into sociopath territory. The fact that she was sleeping with an enemy, who had access to her ship at the highest levels, responsible for the death of billions, and without ever having even suspected a little...well, I think that was a serious ego-crusher for Cain which put her on a one-way trip to dementia. No doubt she fancied herself a good judge of character up until that point.
But I don't think the betrayal was what hardened her, just the final straw. Razor revealed the loss of her sister to the Cylons which I think was the trauma that really made it a personal thing with them. It also makes me wonder what Adama would have done if the Cylons would have killed Zak.
AH! Forgot about the sister arc. Quite right - I remember that now. I think that was definitely one of the first significant catalysts - if not THE first - for her personality "quirks".

Harvey wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Did we know all that about Starbuck during the New Caprica arc? I thought that all came later.

Not the arc but the meeting of Galactica and Pegasus. You know what I mean.
Not all of it. I think the show-runners had a vague idea of her parental baggage, but didn't flesh it out until later. Regardless of that, however, Starbuck was still not always terribly stable. Her extreme anguish over getting Zak killed also had a lot to do with that in the early seasons.
Most of what ended up on screen in seasons two and three about Kara is actually in the series bible, dated December 17, 2003. It's an interesting read, and shows that a lot of thought went into the characters on the show (which is probably why the show was best when focusing on character drama, rather than plot theatrics).
Very cool - maybe they did have that in mind, then, with Starbuck's interactions with Cain after all.
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Old April 27 2012, 01:10 PM   #17
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Harvey wrote: View Post
Most of what ended up on screen in seasons two and three about Kara is actually in the series bible, dated December 17, 2003. It's an interesting read, and shows that a lot of thought went into the characters on the show (which is probably why the show was best when focusing on character drama, rather than plot theatrics).
That's a fascinating document that I've never seen before. I find it very interesting that, while some minor aspects were changed as the series developed, some of them held amazingly close to what actually happened later.

For example, there are scenes described in this 2003 series bible, before a single episode had been written, that we actually see dramatised in the series finale in 2009. Lee and Kara's first awkwardly flirtatious meeting, and the circumstances surrounding Roslin's family's deaths, turn out exactly as described in that document, despite however many changes and developments the entire show went through over the intervening years. That demonstrates a real vision for who these characters were back at the beginning, and a real commitment to keeping them that way by the end.

As for Starbuck, there were also Leoben's lines in "Flesh and Bone" in s1 where he talked about things he shouldn't have been able to know about - that Kara's mother believed that suffering promoted growth and therefore made sure Kara suffered.

.
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Old April 30 2012, 03:34 AM   #18
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Given Starbuck's personal history, it isn't surprising that she'd gravitate towards somebody like Cain, although she (Starbuck) did have enough sense of what was right and wrong to not let herself be completely caught up in Cain's methods, which were driven by revenge as much as anything else. The gist of Starbuck's speech is that, while Cain's methods might've been more than a bit extreme at times, the woman herself was a person she (Starbuck) was proud to have known and served with even briefly, and that assessment isn't changed, IMO, by anything that we learn in Razor. If anything, what we learn in Razor only strengthens the impact of Starbuck's speech because it shows just how spot-on Starbuck ended up being when assessing and eulogizing Cain.
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Old April 30 2012, 04:21 AM   #19
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Scrawny71 wrote: View Post
clint g wrote: View Post
I thought you found out some of that stuff when Starbuck went back to Caprica and visited her old apartment. It's been a while, perhaps it's time for a re-watch
We got a hint of parental abuse in The Farm, when Simon (pretending to be a human doctor) comments that Starbuck's fingers on one hand seemed to have all been broken in the same place (if I recall).
Your right on the money there. The Farm was, at least, the first episode to suggest abuse.

And Kara got more worked up than usual at the suggestion too.
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Old April 30 2012, 04:56 AM   #20
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

What's interesting to me about Kara's speech at the end of RS2 is that it's fundamentally true. Cain pretty well fits the description that Kara lays out, and it's at least arguable that they really were ultimately safer with her around than they ended up being by the end of Season 2.

I've always wondered what was going through Cain's head before Gina's bullet did (with regards to Bob Gunton in The Shawshank Redemption.)
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Old April 30 2012, 09:13 AM   #21
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

She just stood there. Any soldier would have tried something. I think she knew she was crazy and knew it was time to go. Obviously from my OP I fundamentally disagree with the 'safer' assessment. I think it was poor scripting, personally.
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Old April 30 2012, 11:50 AM   #22
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

I'm with you there. How the frak were they safer with her? If you were an officer or soldier, she was likely to shoot you in the head on the spot if you questioned any of her orders, like she did to her XO/best friend (in her first sociopathic act, which incidentally happened before she learned about Gina). If you were a civilian... she would just leave you to die or shoot you to begin with, because you're just a useless puny civilian who can't fight the Cylons and the military is all that matters. If Cain had stayed alive, a civil war would've erupted in the fleet. And that's actually the better alternative compared to the other one - Cain gaining full control of the fleet, which would've likely meant bye bye to the 30,000+ civilians and the end to any hope of rebuilding the human race and the civilization. (That's why Roslin decided to have her assassinated when she learned what she had done with the civilian fleet.) Cain didn't care about that - she just wanted to hurt the Cylons. Her war was ultimately destructive and pointless. She had no goal except revenge.

It also pissed me off big time when Adama said at the end of Razor that she was a tactically perfect commander - when what we saw of her tactics on screen is that she walked right into a Cylon trap (which her XO warned her about and got a bullet in the head for it) and got half of her crew killed, because she was so eager to destroy the Cylons.
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Old April 30 2012, 04:10 PM   #23
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Lack of objectivity and tactical insanity aside, I think, as I've said before, that her sociopathic behaviour infected her crew. The miracle is that they survived at all until they bumped into Galactica.
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Old April 30 2012, 04:21 PM   #24
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Yes, Cain was volatile and her methods were borderline psycho and most definitely extreme, but think about it like this for a minute: would you rather go into battle with someone who is a known hard-ass who might go a bit off the deep end at times, or would you rather go into battle with somebody like Adama? Starbuck, given her background, was someone who would've clearly chosen the former, despite her long father/daughter relationship with Adama, because I think she recognized that sometimes it takes a crazy person to survive war, especially when you're dealing with foes as capricious as the Cylons were at that point.
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Old April 30 2012, 07:31 PM   #25
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

I always read Cain as being a touch, if not comletely, suicidal and throwing her ship and crew into these crazy combat engagements in the hope that one of them would be the one she was killed in. She was paranoid: her lover was a Cylon...her whole crew might be Cylon, best cut out the infection, kill them all. The reason she was winning, is that she was so batshit that she flew in the face of all logic and reason and the Cylons didn't know how to handle it. Her crew turning savage was a side-effect or symptom her madness.
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Old April 30 2012, 07:57 PM   #26
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

^^^ While at the same time proving the Cylons' rather negative opinion of humanity overall.
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Old May 1 2012, 07:10 AM   #27
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Starbuck made a rousing speech at Cain's funeral where she finished by saying she had felt a lot safer with Cain around (I'm paraphrasing here - I only saw it once).

At the time nobody picked up on it but it's always jarred with me. Cain was a vindictive, murderous despot and turned her crew into rapists and thugs. Everyone on Galactica knew this. That speech really pissed me off.
I also recall being somewhat annoyed at the time. Looking back though, I think Cain's tactics were arguably effective and helped keep her crew alive. That's not to say her decisions were moral or correct, but being a hardened badass when the human race is near-extinct certainly can't hurt.
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Old May 1 2012, 01:12 PM   #28
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Yes except that Adama managed to keep a fair number of the human race alive and kicking and his crew wasn't psychotic. I'd say as far as badass leaders go, he didn't do too badly.
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Old May 2 2012, 12:31 PM   #29
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

DigificWriter wrote: View Post
Yes, Cain was volatile and her methods were borderline psycho and most definitely extreme, but think about it like this for a minute: would you rather go into battle with someone who is a known hard-ass who might go a bit off the deep end at times, or would you rather go into battle with somebody like Adama?
Adama, obviously. Do I follow the commander who is trying to keep people alive, and who cares about his crew and leaves no (wo)man behind, or the commander who doesn't care if everyone dies as long as she gets some revenge on the enemy, and who's likely to shoot me in the head if I question her insane orders? Is that even a contest?

Starbuck, given her background, was someone who would've clearly chosen the former, despite her long father/daughter relationship with Adama, because I think she recognized that sometimes it takes a crazy person to survive war, especially when you're dealing with foes as capricious as the Cylons were at that point.
Based on what? From what I saw, Starbuck always respected Adama as a commander and was very loyal to him. Can you remind me of any occasions when Starbuck indicated that she thought Adama was a wussy commander and that Cain would be much better?
I think she recognized that sometimes it takes a crazy person to survive war
People were doing a much better job surviving the war under Adama than under Cain.
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Old May 2 2012, 03:18 PM   #30
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Re: Starbuck's speech about Cain

Starbuck, given her background, was someone who would've clearly chosen the former, despite her long father/daughter relationship with Adama, because I think she recognized that sometimes it takes a crazy person to survive war, especially when you're dealing with foes as capricious as the Cylons were at that point.
Based on what? From what I saw, Starbuck always respected Adama as a commander and was very loyal to him. Can you remind me of any occasions when Starbuck indicated that she thought Adama was a wussy commander and that Cain would be much better?
^^^ I would have to agree with this. Despite her tomboy-crush on, and general respect of, Cain, Starbuck was still willing to put a bullet in her head at Adama's order. She was ready to do it, too, until the stand-down order came. She may have hesitated for a second or two, but I have no doubt she would have pulled the trigger, even if it meant her death at the hands of Cain's security forces/marines that were present in the CIC at the time.
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