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Old April 23 2012, 03:22 AM   #31
largo
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

JES wrote: View Post
I would think the color red might have too much negative connotation, given that it does bring up the thought of blood or violence.
that's hardly universal, though, even here on earth.

I would think that red wouldn't be the only main color used, or maybe a compromise between red and blue, namely violet. Just food for thought.
violet. like.. klingon blood?
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Old April 23 2012, 12:52 PM   #32
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

JES wrote: View Post
I would think the color red might have too much negative connotation, given that it does bring up the thought of blood or violence. Then again: 1) the U.S. flag does use it, and 2) the Terran Empire used yellow as their primary color, so that would probably be the last color used, as opposed to red.
Well, we did see red prominently used on the Flag of the Terran Empire, at least as it existed in the 20th or 21st Centuries, from "In A Mirror, Darkly"'s opening titles:



It's possible, of course, that the 23rd Century Terran Empire no longer used that flag.

But my reasons for picking red were as follows:


Birdog wrote: View Post
The US flag uses red to symbolize blood. The blood that was spilled to toss the Brits on their ear.
This is a common belief, but it's actually just a folk tale. When the Continental Congress approved the first Flag of the United States during the Revolutionary War, their papers included no documents to indicate any particular symbolism behind the colors. More than likely, they simply used red, white, and blue because those were the colors of the British flag -- the Union Jack itself being the result of combining St. George's Cross, the Flag of the Kingdom of England, with St. Andrew's Cross, the Flag of the Kingdom of Scotland, when those two kingdoms dissolved and formed a united Kingdom of Great Britain.
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Old April 27 2012, 01:35 AM   #33
JES
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

largo wrote: View Post
JES wrote: View Post
I would think the color red might have too much negative connotation, given that it does bring up the thought of blood or violence.
that's hardly universal, though, even here on earth.

I would think that red wouldn't be the only main color used, or maybe a compromise between red and blue, namely violet. Just food for thought.
violet. like.. klingon blood?
No, Klingon blood is more pink than violet, at least as I remember it. More like purple, perhaps a reddish violet, bluish violet, or a utilization of both.
Sci wrote: View Post
JES wrote: View Post
I would think the color red might have too much negative connotation, given that it does bring up the thought of blood or violence. Then again: 1) the U.S. flag does use it, and 2) the Terran Empire used yellow as their primary color, so that would probably be the last color used, as opposed to red.
Well, we did see red prominently used on the Flag of the Terran Empire, at least as it existed in the 20th or 21st Centuries, from "In A Mirror, Darkly"'s opening titles:



It's possible, of course, that the 23rd Century Terran Empire no longer used that flag.

But my reasons for picking red were as follows:


Birdog wrote: View Post
The US flag uses red to symbolize blood. The blood that was spilled to toss the Brits on their ear.
This is a common belief, but it's actually just a folk tale. When the Continental Congress approved the first Flag of the United States during the Revolutionary War, their papers included no documents to indicate any particular symbolism behind the colors. More than likely, they simply used red, white, and blue because those were the colors of the British flag -- the Union Jack itself being the result of combining St. George's Cross, the Flag of the Kingdom of England, with St. Andrew's Cross, the Flag of the Kingdom of Scotland, when those two kingdoms dissolved and formed a united Kingdom of Great Britain.
Funny how I didn't remember that flag, especially given that I watched those episodes more than once. Still, that said, I still see this as yet another reason why red wouldn't be used as the primary color. It might be used, but not predominantly.

I think that Memory Omega might want to emphasize that the Commonwealth is going to be very different from the Empire, probably as different as the Empire was to the Federation. I think it is more likely that more green would be used than red, than red would be used as a majority of the color.
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Old April 27 2012, 04:33 PM   #34
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

JES wrote: View Post
Funny how I didn't remember that flag, especially given that I watched those episodes more than once. Still, that said, I still see this as yet another reason why red wouldn't be used as the primary color. It might be used, but not predominantly.
*shrugs* Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a completely subjective bit of speculation. I've listed my reasons for speculating that the Galactic Commonwealth would pick red.

Maybe we could have two versions -- one red, one green, and submit them both to Memory Beta?

I think that Memory Omega might want to emphasize that the Commonwealth is going to be very different from the Empire, probably as different as the Empire was to the Federation. I think it is more likely that more green would be used than red, than red would be used as a majority of the color.
A perfectly fair argument -- except, it wouldn't really be Memory Omega's decision to make; the Commonwealth is a democracy, and it would be the decision of its legislature, the Commonwealth Assembly.
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Old April 27 2012, 04:57 PM   #35
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

Perhaps a starting point might be to look at the Commonwealth of Naztions flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations
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Old April 27 2012, 04:59 PM   #36
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Perhaps a starting point might be to look at the Commonwealth of Naztions flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations
That might make for an interesting interpretation, but I want to point out that the Commonwealth of Nations and the Galactic Commonwealth don't have much in common except the word "commonwealth" in their names. The Galactic Commonwealth is a sovereign state, with a democratically elected government; the Commonwealth of Nations is an intergovernmental organization comprised of many sovereign states who hold membership in it, and use it as a forum for multilateral diplomacy.
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Old April 29 2012, 05:19 PM   #37
JES
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

Sci wrote: View Post
JES wrote: View Post
Funny how I didn't remember that flag, especially given that I watched those episodes more than once. Still, that said, I still see this as yet another reason why red wouldn't be used as the primary color. It might be used, but not predominantly.
*shrugs* Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a completely subjective bit of speculation. I've listed my reasons for speculating that the Galactic Commonwealth would pick red.

Maybe we could have two versions -- one red, one green, and submit them both to Memory Beta?
That is a fair suggestion. I also speculate it might be a combo of red and green, or the color that is made when red and green are mixed (which I can't recall right now). Or it might use all of the above in one flag.

[QUOTE=Sci;6251293]
JES wrote: View Post
I think that Memory Omega might want to emphasize that the Commonwealth is going to be very different from the Empire, probably as different as the Empire was to the Federation. I think it is more likely that more green would be used than red, than red would be used as a majority of the color.
A perfectly fair argument -- except, it wouldn't really be Memory Omega's decision to make; the Commonwealth is a democracy, and it would be the decision of its legislature, the Commonwealth Assembly.
That may be true, but it is possible that Memory Omega might have some influence and/or members of Memory Omega might choose to become politicians. I would expect that some sort of compromise might be reached, so that at least most/all of the influential parties have their representation in the flag. I also find it likely that Memory Omega wouldn't want to be the only party to want to distance the Commonwealth from the old Empire.

I'm guessing that many (or at least some) members of the Commonwealth were formerly under imperial suppression, and would like to avoid anything that might constantly remind them of the old days. I think the flag would probably end up as the product of compromise and collaboration.
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Old April 29 2012, 07:08 PM   #38
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

JES wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
JES wrote: View Post
Funny how I didn't remember that flag, especially given that I watched those episodes more than once. Still, that said, I still see this as yet another reason why red wouldn't be used as the primary color. It might be used, but not predominantly.
*shrugs* Yeah, I mean, this is obviously a completely subjective bit of speculation. I've listed my reasons for speculating that the Galactic Commonwealth would pick red.

Maybe we could have two versions -- one red, one green, and submit them both to Memory Beta?
That is a fair suggestion. I also speculate it might be a combo of red and green, or the color that is made when red and green are mixed (which I can't recall right now). Or it might use all of the above in one flag.
I'd be interested in seeing any of those combinations.

As it stands, I can create a red (or green) flag... I just don't have the tools to add in "GALACTIC COMMONWEALTH" below the seal in the proper font.

Sci wrote: View Post
A perfectly fair argument -- except, it wouldn't really be Memory Omega's decision to make; the Commonwealth is a democracy, and it would be the decision of its legislature, the Commonwealth Assembly.
That may be true, but it is possible that Memory Omega might have some influence and/or members of Memory Omega might choose to become politicians. I would expect that some sort of compromise might be reached, so that at least most/all of the influential parties have their representation in the flag.
*shrugs* On the other hand, perhaps Memory Omega wouldn't want to be seen as unduly influencing the symbols of the state, for fear of creating the impression of a military-dominated government. Yet another variation to perhaps consider making?

I also find it likely that Memory Omega wouldn't want to be the only party to want to distance the Commonwealth from the old Empire.

I'm guessing that many (or at least some) members of the Commonwealth were formerly under imperial suppression, and would like to avoid anything that might constantly remind them of the old days. I think the flag would probably end up as the product of compromise and collaboration.
One of the more intelligent, and interesting, aspects of the direction the Mirror Universe novel line took the Empire's story is that the Empire's systems of domination were made more complicated. In ENT's "In A Mirror, Darkly," the Empire was revealed as Human state that enslaved and oppressed all other races. At the end of the ENT-era MU novel Age of the Empress, however, the Empire changed -- it accepted Vulcans as Humans' equals, with key Vulcans serving in Empress Sato's government. The Sorrows of Empire established that this process continued into the 23rd Century, with the elites of numerous worlds eventually embracing the Empire. So by the time of Spock's ascension, the Empire had become a mechanism for elite domination of numerous worlds, but the non-Human races were not racially oppressed anymore -- rather, the oppression became that of the common people by those the Imperial government favored, with native Governors ruling their worlds in the Empress's name.

So, everyone would hate the Empire, yeah -- but it wouldn't be a Terrans-vs-everyone-else thing, even though Terrans remained the dominant species. The average Human would have felt as oppressed by the Empire as any Vulcan or Denobulan.
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Old May 1 2012, 01:23 AM   #39
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

Put together some rough versions of the Galactic Commonwealth flags. I didn't insert any legends below the seal, so I moved the seal a bit within the field to re-center it a bit. Started by doing a pure blue field with no legend, and then changed it to red and green.





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Old May 1 2012, 06:12 PM   #40
dispatcher812
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

On Federation planets where the flag is flown, is it in the indigenous language of the planet or Federation Standard? Or both?

Kevin
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Old May 1 2012, 08:39 PM   #41
Sci
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Re: Federation flags in other languages

dispatcher812 wrote: View Post
On Federation planets where the flag is flown, is it in the indigenous language of the planet or Federation Standard? Or both?
Ah, you're referring to the versions I started the thread with? My speculation is that both are flown, and that both the local languages and Federation Standard have co-equal status as official versions, but that the one in Standard is the only version of the flag that's official throughout the entire Federation.
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