RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,885
Posts: 5,329,814
Members: 24,557
Currently online: 526
Newest member: Mgroup Video

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Inquisition
By: Michelle on Jul 12

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28 2012, 03:34 PM   #1
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Up until S4 of ENT, the common belief was that the Orions were a very male dominated species, whilst the females were seen as slaves or 'animal women'. In ENT we even got to see an Orion Slave Market, where a female was sold.

A few episodes later its 'revealed' that actually its the women who are in charge, controlling men with their pheromones. If thats the case, why do they allow themselves to be sold and why are they so prized a century later, if the 'owner' will actually be under their control?

Add to this the fact that the Orion Syndicate appears to be the name of their government/empire/territory. I always thought the the Syndicate was more like a large criminal organisation, as when it was on DS9, there wasn't an Orion to be seen.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 04:17 PM   #2
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Up until S4 of ENT, the common belief was that the Orions were a very male dominated species, whilst the females were seen as slaves or 'animal women'. In ENT we even got to see an Orion Slave Market, where a female was sold.

A few episodes later its 'revealed' that actually its the women who are in charge, controlling men with their pheromones. If thats the case, why do they allow themselves to be sold and why are they so prized a century later, if the 'owner' will actually be under their control?
Yeah, it's fairly sexist and porn-y. But then that's the Orions for you.

I justify it by assuming that there are many different Orion factions, and that genetic engineering has resulted in different Orion societies dominated by different groups.

Add to this the fact that the Orion Syndicate appears to be the name of their government/empire/territory. I always thought the the Syndicate was more like a large criminal organisation, as when it was on DS9, there wasn't an Orion to be seen.
I'm sure the Syndicate is just a criminal organization, the interstellar Mafia. It just happened to operate starships to control its "turf" in the 22nd Century, that's all.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 07:06 PM   #3
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

First off, I think "buy" is an unfortunate choice of words when talking about a race that enslaves people...


Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
A few episodes later its 'revealed' that actually its the women who are in charge, controlling men with their pheromones. If thats the case, why do they allow themselves to be sold and why are they so prized a century later, if the 'owner' will actually be under their control?
Protective camouflage. It's safer to be the hidden power behind the throne than to be the one overtly sitting on it. That way nobody shoots at you, they just shoot at your replaceable puppet.

Besides, there is historical precedent in real life. Our perception of slavery is based largely on how it was practiced in American plantations, which was just about as awful as slavery has ever been; but slavery is an institution that's taken many forms in many different societies. In the Islamic world, slaves were routinely used as administrators and warriors, given considerable power even while technically being owned by someone else. Slave armies would go out and conquer entire nations, becoming their rulers and starting hereditary dynasties while still effectively being the property of the ruler back in the home country. (In the Ottoman Empire, all subjects, even the rulers, were considered slaves to the state itself.)

There's also precedent for women wielding considerable political power even while seemingly being subordinate. A prime example is Hurrem, initially a harem slave of Suleiman the Magnificent, who used her wiles to influence the sultan and gain status for herself and her sons, as well as becoming his advisor on matters of state and, according to some accounts, effectively running the Ottoman Empire from the harem. There are lots of ways that women and other subaltern groups have managed to wield informal power throughout history. Women in particular have wielded considerable influence through their control of family matters and marital choices, shaping alliances between clans and nations through the marriages they arranged or participated in; or by using seduction to manipulate or compromise male leaders; or through their role as mothers, guiding and influencing their sons' beliefs and decisions.

So to someone who's studied women's history, ENT's revelation that the role of Orion women is more complex than we thought, that it's not merely a simplistic masculine power fantasy about "animal women," actually makes a lot of sense. If they're really as intensely seductive as they were established to be in TOS, that's a source of power for them, and it makes perfect sense that they'd use that power for more than just being fetish objects for men.


Add to this the fact that the Orion Syndicate appears to be the name of their government/empire/territory. I always thought the the Syndicate was more like a large criminal organisation, as when it was on DS9, there wasn't an Orion to be seen.
I don't see why it can't be a criminal organization in ENT too. Mobs have territories, "turf" that they control and defend. If that part of space was otherwise lawless in the 22nd century, the Syndicate might've been the closest thing it had to a government. The rise of the Federation may have diminished the Orions' power and prominence, so the Syndicate would've needed to evolve, becoming more of an underground group, maybe merging with other species' criminal organizations or broadening its recruitment to survive. A lot can change in two centuries.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 07:43 PM   #4
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Wow. Ok, that has to be one of the best answers I've ever read. Sir, you obviously do your homework

Thank you for the insight.

Having the women as those who are actually the ones in power was an interesting revelation, and that by "selling themselves" they can further that influence. To me it does just seem to be a very odd way to go about it.

Also another thought has just occured to me. What about homosexuals? Would lesbians feel the same attraction straight men would (rather than headaches heterosexual women experienced) and vice versa for gay men? Its just a shame there didn't seem to be any on the NX-01 to see what might have happened.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 07:52 PM   #5
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

"I just don't buy ENT's Orions."
That's good for you, I probably couldn't resist buying one.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 08:07 PM   #6
Temis the Vorta
Fleet Admiral
 
Temis the Vorta's Avatar
 
Location: Tatoinne
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

So to someone who's studied women's history, ENT's revelation that the role of Orion women is more complex than we thought, that it's not merely a simplistic masculine power fantasy about "animal women," actually makes a lot of sense. If they're really as intensely seductive as they were established to be in TOS, that's a source of power for them, and it makes perfect sense that they'd use that power for more than just being fetish objects for men.
That was pretty much my interpretation, too.
Temis the Vorta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 09:14 PM   #7
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

horatio83 wrote: View Post
"I just don't buy ENT's Orions."
That's good for you, I probably couldn't resist buying one.
I don't know. If one of the big burly males came on the market, I might just have to place a bid or two
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2012, 09:52 PM   #8
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
why do they allow themselves to be sold
If a young Orion woman has no current position of power, she would have no objection to being sold in the public market, this is how she (naturally) would get into a mans life. She can then begin to work on him and his position. Manipulating and guiding him, increasing her position and status in the process.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 02:59 PM   #9
Sindatur
Rear Admiral
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
why do they allow themselves to be sold
If a young Orion woman has no current position of power, she would have no objection to being sold in the public market, this is how she (naturally) would get into a mans life. She can then begin to work on him and his position. Manipulating and guiding him, increasing her position and status in the process.

And the action of allowing the sale, helps narrow things down, it's more likely that the buyer is going to be worth something, and worth the time and effort to use/manipulate. If you picked up random men at a bar, odds are you'd end up with a higher percentage of men that aren't worth your effort (No power, riches or influence)
__________________
One Day I hope to be the Man my Cat thinks I am

Where are we going? And why are we in this Handbasket?
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 07:12 PM   #10
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Sindatur wrote: View Post
If you picked up random men at a bar, odds are you'd end up with a higher percentage of men that aren't worth your effort
If you dress in a black tee-shirt/blue jeans and walk into a beer bar full of bikers, you get one kind of man.

If you dress in a cocktail dress/6 inch heels, and walk into a bar that serves 27 year old scotch and is full of stockbrokers and lawyers, you get a different kind of man.

At least from my personal experience.

If the women were expensive, then only individuals of wealth would be present at the auction to make bids, separating the wheat from the chaff. And if the women's power of manipulation worked quickly at a moderate distance, she would be able to exercise control over who in the audience made bids, and who dropped out.

From those present, she would be selecting her own "master."


Last edited by T'Girl; April 29 2012 at 07:23 PM.
T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 07:45 PM   #11
The Badger
Fleet Captain
 
The Badger's Avatar
 
Location: Im in ur Tardis, violating ur canon.
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

T'Girl wrote: View Post
And if the women's power manipulation worked quickly at a moderate distance, she would be able to exercise control over who in the audience made bids, and who dropped out.
ENT explained that the Orion Women's power was due to pheromones, bio-chemical attractants that are inhaled. In a crowded room full of potential buyers, I can't see any way they could target individuals, encouraging some to bid and others not to.

The change seen in Orion Women between TOS and ENT does not really make sense. Clearly an attempt was made to do away with a sexist stereotype. Unfortunately, the replacement seems to me to be equally stereotypical. Instead of sexually available slaves, they turn out to be power hungry manipulators who use their feminine whiles to control men, and view other women as rivals. That's not really an improvement.

It also makes little sense within the internal history of Trek. The only way such a scheme would work is if it remains covert. Would anyone really buy a slave, if they knew that within a few weeks they'd be under the influence, and that their own business empire would be controlled by others? I seriously doubt it. Once news got out of the Orion Women's true abilities, the 'slave' trade would dry up fairly quickly. Yet, a full century after Archer's discovery, Captain Pike is considering becoming a trader of them. And when a ---illusory--- man states that they "...actually like being taken advantage of.", Pike does not correct him. Although, to be fair, he's a little distracted at the time.
The Badger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 08:12 PM   #12
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If you dress in a black tee-shirt/blue jeans and walk into a beer bar full of bikers, you get one kind of man.

If you dress in a cocktail dress/6 inch heels, and walk into a bar that serves 27 year old scotch and is full of stockbrokers and lawyers, you get a different kind of man.
True. In one scenario, you get a group of aggressive, hyper-macho megalomaniacs who think they should be able to harm innocent people and violate the law for personal profit with impunity.

And in the other, you get bikers.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 09:49 PM   #13
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

Well, "Bound" did at least lead to one of Michelle Erica Green's most memorable rants:
Thank you so much, Manny Coto, for giving us an episode like this during Enterprise's final weeks. Thank you for giving me something to remember the show by. You see, I had been growing sad. I had been growing nostalgic. Now, however, I can think of Enterprise as the Star Trek that gave us the worst episode out of all five series. And I didn't think anything could top Spock's Brain! Clearly I underestimated you and your knowledge of the original series. Somehow you managed to distill the worst qualities of that episode, "And the Children Shall Lead", "The Man Trap" and "Turnabout Intruder" into a single installment! Bless you, Manny, for setting me free!

And I don't even have to rant about the misogyny - oh, did you think that declaring that the women weren't slaves would get you off that charge? I don't really have to talk about the heterosexism, either: the assumption that male and female characteristics are absolute and hardwired in the brain, the apparent lack of gay people not only on Archer's ship but anywhere in existence in his century...not to mention the reverse sexism of believing that the scent of a green woman can turn any human male into a violent, lust-crazed imbecile. No...this episode made the crew look so stupid based on plot and continuity issues that those issues fade.
Gaith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2012, 09:49 PM   #14
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

The Badger wrote: View Post
The change seen in Orion Women between TOS and ENT does not really make sense.
Yeah, changing aliens between series is really such a rare incidence in Trek.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2012, 01:16 AM   #15
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: I just don't buy ENT's Orions

The Badger wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
And if the women's power manipulation worked quickly at a moderate distance, she would be able to exercise control over who in the audience made bids, and who dropped out.
ENT explained that the Orion Women's power was due to pheromones, bio-chemical attractants that are inhaled.
My thought was that in addition to pheromones, the woman on the slavers box would get play out of body language (stance, tilt and present) to make herself more and less attractive to various men viewing her.

In a crowded room full of potential buyers, I can't see any way they could target individuals, encouraging some to bid and others not to.
I've seen the effect scent can have in crowded dance clubs, pheromones have range and striking power. Most girls figure out in their late teens that guys are extra special interested in them during their 48 hours of fertility each month. Pheromones.

And it would be a useful attribute if the women's pheromones could be "tuned" to have a additional effect upon select individual's biochemistry (or individuals). That way the effect wouldn't be wasted on male who were basically useless to the women. It could also change to produce different results. Desire me -- provide for me -- protect me -- listen to my council. Even if necessary -- get away from me or fear me. The women could exercise direct conscious control, or it could more subconscious.

The ability might have developed over time as a survival attribute, those women with it lived longer, and reproduced.

The only way such a scheme would work is if it remains covert.
But if the women's manipulation result in social advancement and business success for the males, why would they resist the "scheme?" There would also to the possibility that the women are considered trophies, to be displayed in the background behind leaders, CEOs and politicians. Even today on Earth, "marrying well" is part of the partway to success in upper society and politics.

Behind every successful man, there is a good woman.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
The Badger wrote: View Post
The change seen in Orion Women between TOS and ENT does not really make sense.
Yeah, changing aliens between series is really such a rare incidence in Trek.
Green Vina was definitely working on Captain Pike from the center stage, across a small body of water..

Poor insane Mara seemed to have had any smell powers turned off.

T'Girl is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.