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Old April 23 2012, 02:13 AM   #1801
Tribble Herder
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Tribble Herder wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
There's one particular set of VFX at the climax that've been a problem. Some things are easy to write (a made-up example: "a cloud, streaked, like neon become fog") but hard to turn into actual visuals. Just laying out the composition of these shots has been a challenge, let alone implementing them. This is further complicated (in a good way) by Jimm's desire that everything look like something you could have done in 1970 with the technology of the time.
Whaddya know about cloud tank effects shots?
Plenty. And that they weren't very common in 1970.
Which is why they looked so spectacular when used in TOS.
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Old April 23 2012, 02:15 AM   #1802
Maurice
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Tribble Herder wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Tribble Herder wrote: View Post

Whaddya know about cloud tank effects shots?
Plenty. And that they weren't very common in 1970.
Which is why they looked so spectacular when used in TOS.
Specifically which effects are you referring to?
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Old April 23 2012, 02:27 AM   #1803
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Trumbull is generally credited with having pioneered the use of the cloud tank for Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, which was some years after the end of TOS. The technique was actually invented in 1947, but I can't think of anything in TOS that looks plausibly like it.

Of course, the technique was used in The Wrath Of Khan, but that's not TOS.
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Old April 23 2012, 05:01 AM   #1804
dayxday1000
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Tribble Herder wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Plenty. And that they weren't very common in 1970.
Which is why they looked so spectacular when used in TOS.
Specifically which effects are you referring to?

Not sure what he's referring to. I think I read somewhere that the Murasaki 312 effect was done in a tank.
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Old April 23 2012, 09:25 AM   #1805
Maurice
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

According to the book Star Trek: The Original Series 365 (p. 236), the ameoba was created was by Frank Van der Veer, and created was made by placing colored liquid (most likely mineral oil) between two closely spaced sheets of glass, and by moving the glass to make the liquid undulate.

As to the original Murasaki 312, it looks to be a smoke element.
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Last edited by Maurice; April 23 2012 at 08:05 PM.
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Old April 23 2012, 04:03 PM   #1806
dayxday1000
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Maurice wrote: View Post
As to the original Murasaki 312, it looks to be a smoke element.
You're right. Now that I think about it, whatever it was that I read said it was a smoke effect. My old brain...
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Old April 23 2012, 08:44 PM   #1807
Maurice
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Though it won't tell you anything minus knowing what's in the footage, here are the names of the tabs currently open in my Final Cut timeline.
Act 4.01 Spin out
Act 4.02 Distraction
Act 4.03 Two for the price of one
Act 4.04 Terminal action
Act 4.05 Steady as she goes
Act 4.06 Rocking and rolling
Act 4.09 Tag


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Old April 23 2012, 10:10 PM   #1808
Tribble Herder
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

FYI, startrekhistory.com has more than a few examples of what are allegedly cloud tank effects shots (or at least something very close to a cloud tank).
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Old April 23 2012, 10:59 PM   #1809
Maurice
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Tribble Herder wrote: View Post
FYI, startrekhistory.com has more than a few examples of what are allegedly cloud tank effects shots (or at least something very close to a cloud tank).
Open the link and click the PREV arrow four times to see the example.

When I think "cloud tank" I think of the effect as per CE3K (Close Encounters 3rd Kind for you young ones) that is intended to create what actually looks like clouds, and which uses salt and fresh water to create a "floor" for the cloud effect, but using inks and dyes, etc., in a water tank probably still qualifies. That said, I'm struggling to think of another example on Star Trek aside from Murasaki 312.

Here's a great description of the CE3K cloud tank technique (link).

EDIT: As Dennis mentioned, the first documented use of a cloud tank technique in a motion picture was in 1947 for "The Beginning or the End", a fictionalized account of the creation of the atom bomb. You can see the resulting mushroom cloud effects at 4:34 in the trailer here (link)(sorry there's an ad to sit through).

For The Beginning or the End (1947), director Arnold Gillespie…was asked to re-create the explosion of an atom bomb. Gillespie's first problem was discovering what such an event looked like, since the only existing footage of real atomic explosions was classified at the time. The crete the mushroom cloud eventually seen in the film, Gillespie remembered the way in which he had seen fake blood form billowing clouds in water when filming Tarzan movies years earlier. The effects man built a large glass tank, and after experimenting with various dyes, filmed an underwater mushroom cloud. When superimposed over the background footage, it created an impression of an explosion so convincing that the shot was used in air force training films for years afterwards.

Richard Rickitt
Special Effects - The History and Techniques
Billboard Books (October 1, 2000)
p.112
ISBN-10: 0823077330
ISBN-13: 978-0823077335
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Last edited by Maurice; April 23 2012 at 11:34 PM.
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Old April 23 2012, 11:09 PM   #1810
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

As an aside, I recommend cycling through the whole loop at startrekhistory.com. The Tholian head movie was particularly interesting for me personally.
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Old April 24 2012, 01:03 AM   #1811
JimTheBuilder
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Though it won't tell you anything minus knowing what's in the footage, here are the names of the tabs currently open in my Final Cut timeline.
Act 4.01 Spin out
Act 4.02 Distraction
Act 4.03 Two for the price of one
Act 4.04 Terminal action
Act 4.05 Steady as she goes
Act 4.06 Rocking and rolling
Act 4.09 Tag


Seriously?

Hell, THAT ain't much! You guys are getting really close to done, aren't you?
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Old April 24 2012, 01:08 AM   #1812
JimTheBuilder
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Tribble Herder wrote: View Post
FYI, startrekhistory.com has more than a few examples of what are allegedly cloud tank effects shots (or at least something very close to a cloud tank).
Open the link and click the PREV arrow four times to see the example.

When I think "cloud tank" I think of the effect as per CE3K (Close Encounters 3rd Kind for you young ones) that is intended to create what actually looks like clouds, and which uses salt and fresh water to create a "floor" for the cloud effect, but using inks and dyes, etc., in a water tank probably still qualifies. That said, I'm struggling to think of another example on Star Trek aside from Murasaki 312.

Here's a great description of the CE3K cloud tank technique (link).

EDIT: As Dennis mentioned, the first documented use of a cloud tank technique in a motion picture was in 1947 for "The Beginning or the End", a fictionalized account of the creation of the atom bomb. You can see the resulting mushroom cloud effects at 4:34 in the trailer here (link)(sorry there's an ad to sit through).

For The Beginning or the End (1947), director Arnold Gillespie…was asked to re-create the explosion of an atom bomb. Gillespie's first problem was discovering what such an event looked like, since the only existing footage of real atomic explosions was classified at the time. The crete the mushroom cloud eventually seen in the film, Gillespie remembered the way in which he had seen fake blood form billowing clouds in water when filming Tarzan movies years earlier. The effects man built a large glass tank, and after experimenting with various dyes, filmed an underwater mushroom cloud. When superimposed over the background footage, it created an impression of an explosion so convincing that the shot was used in air force training films for years afterwards.

Richard Rickitt
Special Effects - The History and Techniques
Billboard Books (October 1, 2000)
p.112
ISBN-10: 0823077330
ISBN-13: 978-0823077335
It's always been my understanding that the Wicked Witch's "SURRENDER DOROTHY" sky writing seen in "The Wizard Of Oz" was done in a tank....
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Old April 24 2012, 02:23 AM   #1813
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

http://www.oocities.org/rubyslipper5/special.html

Also, a little bit of home town color:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_Dorothy
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Old April 24 2012, 02:49 AM   #1814
JimTheBuilder
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
Yep...thought so...Thanks! It's nice to get confirmation on what I have rattling around in my dusty brain....
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Old April 24 2012, 03:31 AM   #1815
Maurice
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Re: Whatever happened to Starship Exeter?

JimTheBuilder wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Though it won't tell you anything minus knowing what's in the footage, here are the names of the tabs currently open in my Final Cut timeline.
Act 4.01 Spin out
Act 4.02 Distraction
Act 4.03 Two for the price of one
Act 4.04 Terminal action
Act 4.05 Steady as she goes
Act 4.06 Rocking and rolling
Act 4.09 Tag


Seriously?

Hell, THAT ain't much! You guys are getting really close to done, aren't you?
Well, that's the edit, which will be subject to changes. Then comes finishing all the VFX, sound, and scoring. I should add that each one of these can represent from one to three minutes of action.
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