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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old April 18 2012, 09:34 PM   #31
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

I was in college when the videogame "Pong" was introduced; my tastes were pretty definitely formed in an earlier era. I still don't get the complaints about things like fast cutting, "shaky-cam" and 3D.
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Old April 19 2012, 12:17 AM   #32
MikeH92467
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

All a matter of preferences. I may not be a big fan Abrams, but I do respect his skill and talent. What I don't get is why some people have to try to say the film was terrible because it wasn't what they wanted. I can acknowledge that it's skillfully made and well-acted with incredibly high technical standards even while saying it wasn't exactly my cup of Earl Gray.
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Old April 21 2012, 02:40 AM   #33
Ian Keldon
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Well, that and "World Enough and Time."
WEAT definitely raises the bar on fan films...on this we can safely agree...

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
Emphasis mine
2) You hold up Abrams as an example of how it "should be done"? Yes, by all means lets learn how to make better Star Trek media by copying Star Wars' style and tone...

You accuse fan films of being too insular and safe...as well as being the intellectual equivalent of "junk food"...so what does Abrams bring us? Kirk/Spock friendship trope. Spock struggles with his heritage trope. Revenge-driven villain trope. All dressed up in lens flares, lots of "run and jump" and "pew-pew-pew". Your example of how Trek films should be made is the perfect example of everything you claim to decry in fan-films...
This is the same generic, superficial drivel of an argument trotted out by those who constantly feel the need to prove that the new TREK isn't really TREK. I could go on for pages, but I won't ... it's not worth the effort.[/quote]

It doesn't take much effort at all to admit the truth: JJ Trek was the proverbial "mile wide and inch deep" as a film. Tropes dressed up in dazzle for the mass audience. All flash and no real substance. Intellectually safe as tapioca pudding. It gave us nothing we haven't seen before in the franchise, and seen done better.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you're in trouble when your new Trek producer pulls out the playbook for Star Wars to figure out how to make his film.

Moreover, your last statement shows to me that you read what I said, but you didn't really listen to what I said.
I read. I listened. I noted the irony of you accusing fan films of being "empty calories" as entertainment, safely formulaic and unimaginitive, then citing JJ Trek (as enjoyable as it might be) as an exemplar of "how to do it right".

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There may be worthwhile criticisms of Abrams's movie out there somewhere, but they're not being posted by Trek fans on Trekbbs.
With apologies to the original:

"All fandom trembles at the searing logic of your fiery intellect... "
And, in case you are unaware of the original of that, it is sarcasm...


The thing is, I actually liked Trek XI, at least for what it was: a dumbed down, sexed up ADHD alternate universe Trek film that had (along with a good cast) just enough of the elements of "real" Trek in it to get away with it's shortcomings.

Last edited by Ian Keldon; April 21 2012 at 02:54 AM.
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Old April 21 2012, 06:43 PM   #34
Ryan Thomas Riddle
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
Snipped for brevity.
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
You accuse fan films of being too insular and safe...as well as being the intellectual equivalent of "junk food"...so what does Abrams bring us? Kirk/Spock friendship trope. Spock struggles with his heritage trope. Revenge-driven villain trope. All dressed up in lens flares, lots of "run and jump" and "pew-pew-pew". Your example of how Trek films should be made is the perfect example of everything you claim to decry in fan-films...
middyseafort wrote: View Post
This is the same generic, superficial drivel of an argument trotted out by those who constantly feel the need to prove that the new TREK isn't really TREK. I could go on for pages, but I won't ... it's not worth the effort.
It doesn't take much effort at all to admit the truth: JJ Trek was the proverbial "mile wide and inch deep" as a film. Tropes dressed up in dazzle for the mass audience. All flash and no real substance. Intellectually safe as tapioca pudding. It gave us nothing we haven't seen before in the franchise, and seen done better.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know you're in trouble when your new Trek producer pulls out the playbook for Star Wars to figure out how to make his film.
Once again, your argument is couched in the same generic "he turned STAR TREK into STAR WARS" argument. Not one I'm overly concerned with, it is a circular argument.

Also, your argument that ST'09 was "tropes dressed up in dazzle for the mass audience" and "intellectually safe as tapioca pudding" is the same thing said about the orignal source material. For instance:


Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
middyseafort wrote: View Post
Moreover, your last statement shows to me that you read what I said, but you didn't really listen to what I said.
I read. I listened. I noted the irony of you accusing fan films of being "empty calories" as entertainment, safely formulaic and unimaginitive, then citing JJ Trek (as enjoyable as it might be) as an exemplar of "how to do it right".
Got me there. I did use ST '09 as one example of how find opportunities to stretch the format, break free of the formula by thinking about how Abrams used other storytelling languages and brought that to Trek. But I wasn't saying that fan films should be a 1:1 carbon copy of the Abrams film. Once again, however, you missed the substance of my argument. I go into further detail in this post.

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
There may be worthwhile criticisms of Abrams's movie out there somewhere, but they're not being posted by Trek fans on Trekbbs.
With apologies to the original:

"All fandom trembles at the searing logic of your fiery intellect... "
And, in case you are unaware of the original of that, it is sarcasm...


The thing is, I actually liked Trek XI, at least for what it was: a dumbed down, sexed up ADHD alternate universe Trek film that had (along with a good cast) just enough of the elements of "real" Trek in it to get away with it's shortcomings.
Your "sarcasm" and rolling eyes aside, Dennis still has a valid point. Yours on the other hand isn't. Generic, nothing that's been said before by others only wishing to stir the pot rather than actually engage in debate.

Quite frankly, your superficial assessment of ST '09 seen through another lens could be said, as seen in the Tom Synder clip with Ellison, about the source material: sexed up, dumbed-down and fast-paced science-fiction for 60s television.

I love STAR TREK (TOS) more than any other television show, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that it was as intellectually deep as its given credit for. Sure it was smart television, but not as smart as Trek fans and so-called television historians say it was. Certainly, no smarter than a lot of other contemporary one-hour dramas, which had their fair share of sharp storytelling and political commentary. Which is why I urge fan films to watch and study other shows of that era — I SPY as an example, particularly this episode, which daftly examined drug addiction without getting on a soapbox about it.

And as seen in the post I link to above, the original was certainly transformative, taking high-seas adventure fiction tropes, pulp SF tropes and western tropes then placing it aboard a starship as a vehicle for storytelling.
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Last edited by Ryan Thomas Riddle; April 22 2012 at 05:59 AM.
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Old April 21 2012, 10:03 PM   #35
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Your "sarcasm" and rolling eyes aside, Dennis still has a valid point. Yours on the other hand isn't. Generic, nothing that's been said before by others only wishing to stir the pot rather than actually engage in debate.

Quite frankly, your superficial assessment of ST '09 seen through another lens could be said, as seen in the Tom Synder clip with Ellison, about the source material: sexed up, dumbed-down and fast-paced science-fiction for 60s television.
True.
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Old April 21 2012, 11:46 PM   #36
Maurice
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
I was in college when the videogame "Pong" was introduced; my tastes were pretty definitely formed in an earlier era. I still don't get the complaints about things like fast cutting, "shaky-cam" and 3D.
A lot of people's tastes get locked into what they grew up with and what they lived in their 20s. As I've gotten older I find that my tastes have actually broadened in many ways. There are very modern things I like and really ancient things I like, often more than the stuff I liked when I was younger. Viva la difference.

MikeH92467 wrote: View Post
All a matter of preferences. I may not be a big fan Abrams, but I do respect his skill and talent. What I don't get is why some people have to try to say the film was terrible because it wasn't what they wanted. I can acknowledge that it's skillfully made and well-acted with incredibly high technical standards even while saying it wasn't exactly my cup of Earl Gray.
And there's the rub. Many people have a strong urge to condemn and demean that which they don't like, be in sexual practices, music, religions, books, food or movies. It's something I don't get.

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
You accuse fan films of being too insular and safe...as well as being the intellectual equivalent of "junk food"...so what does Abrams bring us? Kirk/Spock friendship trope. Spock struggles with his heritage trope. Revenge-driven villain trope. All dressed up in lens flares, lots of "run and jump" and "pew-pew-pew". Your example of how Trek films should be made is the perfect example of everything you claim to decry in fan-films...
Not necessarily. Abrams put in lots of running and jumping and action to make the film exciting and visual, but those aren't in of themselves bad things. Arguably, part of the problem with Star Trek on the big screen has always been its relative lethargy and talky-ness. This film finally addresses that. It's light on its feet and even if the plot events aren't the most inspired it does finally show that Star Trek CAN be exciting and fast paced and modern. As such, flaws or not, it's a great example of what Middy is getting at. It's not a be-all and end-all, it's just one possible approach.

middyseafort wrote: View Post
I love STAR TREK (TOS) more than any other television show, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that it was as intellectually deep as its given credit for. Sure it was smart television, but not as smart as Trek fans and so-called television historians say it was. Certainly, no smarter than a lot of other contemporary one-hour dramas, which had their fair share of sharp storytelling and political commentary. Which is why I urge fan films to watch and study other shows of that era —*I SPY as an example, particularly this episode, which daftly examined drug addiction without getting on a soapbox about it.

And as seen in the post I link to above, the original was certainly transformative, taking high-seas adventure fiction tropes, pulp SF tropes and western tropes then placing it aboard a starship as a vehicle for storytelling.
I think THIS is the nugget. Art does not exist in a vacuum. It is informed by everything around it. Many fan films ape Star Trek without understanding how it works and why it is/was what it is. Most of the writers who wrote for the original series had experience writing all kinds of shows, including cops and westerns, and the things they brought from those cross-pollinated with Trek's sci-fi genre. Kirk is Horatio Hornblower+Hamlet. Spock is—let's face it—Mingo on Daniel Boone.

I think it's fair to say that fan filmmakers could learn by broadening their horizons beyond mere Star Trek simulacrum. It worked for Roddenberry, Coon, Fontana, et. al., right?
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Last edited by Maurice; April 22 2012 at 04:19 AM.
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Old April 22 2012, 04:06 AM   #37
Tribble Herder
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

^ Good point. Roddenberry wrote for cop shows and westerns and created a show about the Marines before he put together Star Trek. Dorothy Fontana wrote for westerns and doctor shows beforehand, and Gene L. Coon wrote for sitcoms, westerns, cop shows, and everything in between.
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Old April 22 2012, 04:36 AM   #38
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

Westerns. Westerns are huge.
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Old April 22 2012, 05:07 AM   #39
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

^ As proven by Firefly.

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Old April 22 2012, 05:21 AM   #40
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

Even Kung Fu was a western.
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Old April 23 2012, 02:10 AM   #41
Tribble Herder
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Re: Fan Productions shut down by Rights Holders?

Does "Wagon Train to the stars" ring a bell?
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