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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 18 2012, 05:03 AM   #31
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Tosk wrote: View Post
Here's something though...

They thought about killing Will and replacing him with a never-before-seen, less experienced twin. Many people think this was a good idea and think they should have done it.

Years later they did do it, and almost everyone seems to really hate it.

Why is it a good idea for Riker but not for Data? Discuss...
Good point.

For me I would have to say that with the Riker's, though Will was killed off and replaced with Tom, they were two different characters (thanks to their experiences). Also after Second Chances then Tom had the chance for development, adjusting to life around people again, new position on a ship haunted by his 'brother', relationship with Troi, etc. There would have been the chance to get to know him, and with the good standard of writing and work being done on Trek at the time it could have been done in a considered way, not making light of the situation whilst also giving Tom the chance to shine in his own light.

With B-4, all of Data's memories and experiences were ripped away from him and implanted in another. B-4 would have become Data 2.0, just the same character with an origin that would probably never be touched on again (how often was the fact that Harry was a duplicate ["Deadlock"], or O'Brien was a 'time traveller' from a few hours in our future ["Visionary"] ever mentioned after the episode?). It was also thrown in at the end of what was always advertised as being the last TNG movie (which was awful), so we have no way of knowing what happened next and it leaves lots of unanswered questions that will never be aired on screen.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.
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Old April 18 2012, 06:21 AM   #32
Gary7
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Knight Templar wrote: View Post
For once I agree with Berman and Braga. Killing Riker and replacing him with "Thomas Riker" would've been basically killing off everything Will Riker had done and experiences over the six years or so.

That said, although I like Jonathan Frakes and the Riker character a lot, I personally don't think that Frakes had the acting chops to pull off a "same but different" take on Riker that would work onscreen.

Nor do I think the quality of ST:TNG writers were high enough quality at that point to pull it off.

After a few episodes, the only thing different would be that "Riker" would use a different first name, be sitting in a different bridge chair, and having sex with Troi now and then.
I don't think there would have been much of a problem with "erasing" Will Riker's experiences. The show was more episodic than serialized, after all. But I do agree that Frakes didn't have the ability to really pull of sustained shift to Thomas instead of Will. Still, he might have surprised us. Who knows.

I personally feel that it would've "refreshed" a bit of the show, at a time when it had already shown signs of going stale. The last season would've had just a little bit of a different spin on it, with Thomas instead of Will. But it certainly would've caused a shift in officer positions. I doubt Thomas would've gotten promoted to commander.

Would Thomas have worked out for the movies? I liked the dynamic between Will and Troi in First Contact. It would've been different with Thomas, and it's hard to think of the result.



Even though Data is an android, his personality evolved over time in reaction to the people he worked and lived with across many years. B-4 would start out with the same base positronic design, implanted with Data's memories, and the engrams of his personality would be influenced by Data's memories. So, you would probably see behavior like Data at times. But alas, as Bry pointed out there was no room to ever discover what would have become of B-4, because it was the end of the TNG movies. I also feel it was a terrible exit... the worst movie of the franchise.
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Old April 18 2012, 11:00 AM   #33
47
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Tosk wrote: View Post
Here's something though...

They thought about killing Will and replacing him with a never-before-seen, less experienced twin. Many people think this was a good idea and think they should have done it.

Years later they did do it, and almost everyone seems to really hate it.

Why is it a good idea for Riker but not for Data? Discuss...
Simple. The execution was crappy and there was no valid reason or advantage in hell to kill Data, when it was clear that Nemesis was the last movie of the series.
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Old April 18 2012, 08:05 PM   #34
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Killing off Will Riker and replacing him with Thomas Riker would have been just as bad as when they killed off Data, just to replace him. It would have angered avid fans of the show and confused casual viewers of the show. i.e. that Will Riker is now called Thomas and is in a new position. Hard to do with a show that relied on being episodic.
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Old April 19 2012, 06:58 PM   #35
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

47 wrote: View Post
Simple. The execution was crappy and there was no valid reason or advantage in hell to kill Data, when it was clear that Nemesis was the last movie of the series.
I do agree that it would've been better for Data to survive, if only for it being easier for the subsequent novels written to make use of him without "canon violation." In movie production respects, it's a wash, anyway. Remember, the whole crew is "dead" because TNG movies are no more. There won't be any more. The actors are through with it due to age, as well.

We have seen some TOS actors (secondary and guest) make appearances in fan productions. I do wonder if a really good TNG fan production might lure some TNG cast members to make appearances too. But for Brent to show up slathered in Data make-up? Nah. I think there's a very slim chance of that ever happening. I could see Frakes doing it. He's the kind of guy who'd love the ego boost of the experience, another round of intense fan fawning.
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Old April 20 2012, 02:36 AM   #36
Anji
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

That Will/Thomas Riker was one of the stupidist episodes of Star Trek I've ever seen!

If you want to soften Will to make him more accessible to Deanna (which I think that is what they were going for) you can do it without replacing him with something so implausable as a transporter duplicate.

The easiest way i can think is to jeopardize either her or his life and the two will appreciate each other. That's the way it works in real life. Only after a couple realizes one will be missing do they truly start to appreciate each other.

C'mon!
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Old April 20 2012, 04:03 AM   #37
tighr
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Mojochi wrote: View Post
It seriously would have messed with heads, particularly Troi & Picard. Tom would not have been a clean swap. The effect of losing Will would weigh heavy on everyone, especially Troi & Picard, & having Tom around would have been a rather uncomfortable reminder. Sort of like having Yar's sister show up, times a billion
We basically got to see this same plot thread actually play out on another show, nuBSG. Sharon Valerii and Sharon Agathon were essentially the same person but with different life experiences, and when Boomer was killed off and replaced with Athena, we got to see how the rest of the crew reacted to her. Athena never experienced the months on Galactica where she ultimately shoots Adama (not to mention not being Cylon brainwashed), so she comes across as a more redeeming character. Meanwhile, Boomer was just one failure after another until she finally bites it in the finale. It was interesting to see the dichotomy between them. I think it worked out well, plus we got two of Grace Park

James R wrote: View Post
I didn't need to kill him they should have had him leave and that should have been the set up for one of the spin offs espically after Deana and Worf got together that could have been used as a reason to get the character off the ship.
I was going to suggest this if no one else had. There's no reason to kill off Will Riker, just force him to take a Captaincy on another ship and get rid of him. The actual "Will Riker" will still be alive and we can see him every now and then, his character won't be stagnant, and we get to start all over again with Tom Riker. It's the Best of Both Worlds (pardon the pun).
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Old April 20 2012, 04:35 AM   #38
Gil T.Azell
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

You might have seen a short ratings Spike, but thats all I could see coming from this idea.
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Old April 20 2012, 05:28 AM   #39
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

blueziggy wrote: View Post
you want real character development without much effort? every few episodes after BoBW have riker get a priority 1 communication from earth. each time we see a little more of the message and/or interaction with a secretive admiral. keep it vague but then later on we find out that riker is the mole for starfleet keeping an eye on the former borg/reformed JLP.

explains why riker doesnt leave, sets up the beginning of FC and gives character development all in one fell swoop. hell even make the "admiral" part of section 31.

of course this is hindsight...
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Old April 21 2012, 07:43 PM   #40
sonak
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

Lt. LaForge wrote: View Post
blueziggy wrote: View Post
you want real character development without much effort? every few episodes after BoBW have riker get a priority 1 communication from earth. each time we see a little more of the message and/or interaction with a secretive admiral. keep it vague but then later on we find out that riker is the mole for starfleet keeping an eye on the former borg/reformed JLP.

explains why riker doesnt leave, sets up the beginning of FC and gives character development all in one fell swoop. hell even make the "admiral" part of section 31.

of course this is hindsight...
Theory subscribed to by myself.

That was a cool idea. You also could have done something like "the Pegasus" a lot earlier in TNG, thereby creating a disciplinary scenario where Riker CAN'T become a captain for a long time and so must remain an XO on the Enterprise. That way it doesn't look absurd for him staying so long considering his ambition, plus it gives the character some bitterness.
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Old April 21 2012, 08:11 PM   #41
trothmaster
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

I agree that Riker should have been given a new command in the Movies. Killing off Riker during the time period when TNG aired would have been super ahead of their time. DS9 could have gotten away with that (sort of did killing off dax!)!
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Old April 22 2012, 07:39 PM   #42
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

As to to the episode in question ("Second Chances") I was suprised Tom Riker was not killed off. I never knew about the other plans for having him replace the Will Riker we all know and love.
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Old April 25 2012, 08:11 PM   #43
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

I think in a hindsight, fanwanking kind of way it's a good idea. In reality, it would have been a cheap gimmick. Kind of like the whole B4 thing was. To me that just screamed "Ok, we'll kill off Data but we'll keep this B4 guy in our pocket just in case this movie makes a lot of money and we can get Brent Spiner to agree to another one."

And, why would Tom Riker automatically go to the Enterprise? Heck, I'd think that would be the last place Starfleet would assign him if Will Riker was killed.
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Old April 25 2012, 08:21 PM   #44
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

sonak wrote: View Post
Lt. LaForge wrote: View Post
blueziggy wrote: View Post
you want real character development without much effort? every few episodes after BoBW have riker get a priority 1 communication from earth. each time we see a little more of the message and/or interaction with a secretive admiral. keep it vague but then later on we find out that riker is the mole for starfleet keeping an eye on the former borg/reformed JLP.

explains why riker doesnt leave, sets up the beginning of FC and gives character development all in one fell swoop. hell even make the "admiral" part of section 31.

of course this is hindsight...
Theory subscribed to by myself.

That was a cool idea. You also could have done something like "the Pegasus" a lot earlier in TNG, thereby creating a disciplinary scenario where Riker CAN'T become a captain for a long time and so must remain an XO on the Enterprise. That way it doesn't look absurd for him staying so long considering his ambition, plus it gives the character some bitterness.
No.

That might have worked on DS9 or even possibly somehow on Voyager or Enterprise, but not TNG. And, as I said before, it flies in the face of and contradicts what TNG was about. Dislike.
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Old April 25 2012, 08:30 PM   #45
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Killing off Will Riker

sonak wrote: View Post
That was a cool idea. You also could have done something like "the Pegasus" a lot earlier in TNG, thereby creating a disciplinary scenario where Riker CAN'T become a captain for a long time and so must remain an XO on the Enterprise. That way it doesn't look absurd for him staying so long considering his ambition, plus it gives the character some bitterness.
This idea I like. And later on both DS9 (Worf) and VOY (Paris) do similar "you're in trouble and now you can't be promoted" storylines. I doubt TNG would have had the guts to sully one of their regulars like that, though, even though I think Riker would have played it well. Could have given him lots of reasons to go sit on Troi's couch
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