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Old April 3 2012, 12:01 AM   #16
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Re: All about T'Pol

I don't know why people can't look past a cat suit and nice figure to the character. T'Pol and 7 were very well developed characters with great personality growth arcs that carried on over 4 seasons each. They were not static like a lot of characters in Trek tend to be. Yes they have large breasts.. because some women DO have large breasts and nice figures. Does this make them about nothing more than sex?
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Old April 3 2012, 04:28 AM   #17
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Re: All about T'Pol

I am with you Teacake. I think that so many lonely forum members live in a pathetic world inside their heads where they think that putting down beautiful women makes them better men. Sad really.
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Old April 3 2012, 04:51 AM   #18
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Re: All about T'Pol

teacake wrote: View Post
I don't know why people can't look past a cat suit and nice figure to the character. T'Pol and 7 were very well developed characters with great personality growth arcs that carried on over 4 seasons each. They were not static like a lot of characters in Trek tend to be. Yes they have large breasts.. because some women DO have large breasts and nice figures. Does this make them about nothing more than sex?
Agreed. Both Seven and T'Pol developed well beyond their supposed only reasons for existing (i.e. 'just stand there and look good'). I don't understand why so many fans get so uppity about Seven, T'Pol, and Deanna Troi wearing nonstandard uniforms that emphasize their figures. Using sex to attract viewers has been a part of Star Trek since TOS. It's just part of the reality of television. Just deal with it and move on.
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Old April 3 2012, 05:04 AM   #19
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Re: All about T'Pol

I am of the opinion that T'Pol is probably the best Vulcan on Trek. Spock set the standard, and
T'Pol has reached that level. In Ent seasons 2-4 as I have mentioned in other posts, she screamed Vulcan, she was Vulcan, she is what and who I would expect a Vulcan to be. Espically being an 22nd Century Vulcan, she did show some emotion that later Vulcans did not show. In Trek 3 after that Klingon kills David Marcus, Saavik has to report to Kirk...she simply say's "David is Dead" with not one shred of emotion, T'Pol does show emotion, not a whole lot but some and I love that. Don't get me wrong I love most of the actor/actress who have played Vulcans, however, something about T'Pol stands out from the crowd, besides Spock of course. Liked Kristie Alley, and Robin Curtiss, did not care for Valeris at all, for some reason she really bugged me. Any thoughts...
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Old April 15 2012, 08:31 PM   #20
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Re: All about T'Pol

teacake wrote: View Post
I don't know why people can't look past a cat suit and nice figure to the character. T'Pol and 7 were very well developed characters with great personality growth arcs that carried on over 4 seasons each. They were not static like a lot of characters in Trek tend to be. Yes they have large breasts.. because some women DO have large breasts and nice figures. Does this make them about nothing more than sex?
What bothers me is when the characters dress in a sexually provocative manner when it is inconsistent with the rest of their personality -- or, in the case of T'Pol's early catsuits, with the practices of her culture.

The idea that Seven would want to dress in a skintight catsuit that is literally designed to lift and separate each individual breast is just absurd. Seven is a character who hides feelings of sexuality because she considers them a form of emotional vulnerability; she wouldn't wear a slinky, cleavage-y dress to a fancy event, for instance, and she wouldn't plausibly wear a skintight catsuit.

Same thing with T'Pol, who would naturally consider all expressions of overt physical sexuality to be a form of emotional expression to be repressed. The Vulcan space service would not plausibly issue sexually provocative, skintight catsuits as its uniform design given their culture's hostility towards overt expressions of sexuality, and T'Pol herself would not want plausibly want to display her body like that in a professional setting after leaving the High Command.

That's what makes those costuming choices objectifying -- not that a character is wearing them, but that a character that would not plausibly dress in such a manner is wearing them. It alienates the character from her own body and sets up her body as being present for male sexual gratification, and so objectifies her. Notice that no one says boo about Troi or Kes wearing catsuits -- because those characters were sexually expressive and assertive, to differing degrees, and thus it wasn't inconsistent with their personalities.
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Old April 15 2012, 09:58 PM   #21
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Re: All about T'Pol

Uh huh
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Old April 15 2012, 10:13 PM   #22
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Re: All about T'Pol

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Uh huh
I'm sorry, but that's not comparable, for a number of reasons:

1. It's at her wedding, and at Vulcan weddings, one or more parties are often affected by the pon farr. It makes perfect sense that Vulcan culture might allow for more sexualized clothing at a pon farr-induced wedding.

2. Yes, that's a dress, and it's a little bit tight. But it's not as ridiculously tight as T'Pol's Vulcan uniform in ENT Seasons One and Two, nor is it designed to draw a great deal of attention to her breasts and buttocks. Nor is it as ridiculously tight as the catsuit T'Pol wore supposedly of her own accord in ENT Seasons.

3. We've seen what Vulcans wear in most other contexts; they're usually robes or simple tunics. It's nothing like what T'Pol wore in ENT Seasons Three and Four, and it's also quite different from T'Pring's dress. Something akin to T'Pol's costume in "Home" is far more consistent with her character and culture than the blue and red catsuits.
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Old April 15 2012, 10:59 PM   #23
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Re: All about T'Pol

It has an Empire waist and a tight bodice. Its all about the boobies.

Uh huh



Uh huh





I like the TOS Vulcans. Nary a robe in sight. They seemed to like skirts/kilts and sensible suits.
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Old April 15 2012, 11:21 PM   #24
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Re: All about T'Pol

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
It has an Empire waist and a tight bodice. Its all about the boobies.
Yes -- at a wedding. And it's still not as objectifying as the catsuits.


At an obscure ceremony whose nature apparently predates modern Vulcan? Hardly indicative of anything.

Uh huh


Congratulations, you've proven that DS9 could be just as sexist and objectifying as ENT and VOY.
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Old April 15 2012, 11:43 PM   #25
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Re: All about T'Pol

So they just happened to have those outfits lying around, just in case someone wanted the fal tor pan???? I think they might just be something that these women wear from time to time.

Since Spock didn't change into a "Vulcan tux" ( or a dress uniform) we can assume that T'Pring is dressed in Vulcan casual. Nice legs on T'Pring, she's the Angelina Jolie of Vulcan. No comment on the "executioner's" exposed flesh? Why would a Vulcan show off his chest like that?
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Old April 15 2012, 11:44 PM   #26
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Re: All about T'Pol

Let's take a look at the most common forms of dress for Vulcan female civilians, across the series:



So it's fairly firmly established that Vulcan women do not, in general, dress to advertise their sexuality. Why would they? Their culture disdains open expressions of sexuality and emotion, after all; they barely even talk about the pon farr in public.

Now, hell, you can have an individual Vulcan character who breaks the rules of their culture because that's the sort of person they are. But T'Pol isn't -- yes, she rebels against some rules, but even among Humans, she makes a strong (if not always successful) effort to control her emotions. She doesn't seek to make Human men desire her. So her ENT Seasons Three and Four costumes aren't consistent with her culture or with her individual characterizaton.

Then there's the Seasons One and Two catsuit, which was worn while T'Pol was supposed to be a serving officer with the Vulcan space service. It's ludicrous -- it defies Vulcan culture and her charaterization at that point in the series and stands in stark contrast to how other female officers of the Vulcan space service were costumed:



It didn't serve any purpose except to objectify the character for male titillation.

ETA:

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
So they just happened to have those outfits lying around, just in case someone wanted the fal tor pan????
Why not? Clothing from premodern eras are often preserved, particularly if they hold religious significance. And VOY's "Tuvix" already well established that Vulcans held onto religious ceremonial practices, even well after the rise of Surak's teachings.

Since Spock didn't change into a "Vulcan tux" ( or a dress uniform) we can assume that T'Pring is dressed in Vulcan casual.
I see no reason to make such an assumption, especially given T'Pau's highly formal dress.

No comment on the "executioner's" exposed flesh? Why would a Vulcan show off his chest like that?
Looks like a highly ceremonial form of dress to me -- likely held over from the pre-modern Vulcan era.

ETA 2:

Even a female Vulcan visiting Risa doesn't dress so provocatively:

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Old April 16 2012, 12:08 AM   #27
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Re: All about T'Pol

Sci wrote: View Post

Since Spock didn't change into a "Vulcan tux" ( or a dress uniform) we can assume that T'Pring is dressed in Vulcan casual.
I see no reason to make such an assumption, especially given T'Pau's highly formal dress.

[
She's wearing what looks like a black pants suit/turtleneck combo (standard alien fair in TOS) with a silver skirt and a cape of gossamer. Is that highly formal on Vulcan????

As I said, the TOS Vulcans didnt go for robes. That seems to be an invention of the movies when the Vulcans went from scientists to mystics.
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Old April 16 2012, 12:15 AM   #28
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Re: All about T'Pol

Sci wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I don't know why people can't look past a cat suit and nice figure to the character. T'Pol and 7 were very well developed characters with great personality growth arcs that carried on over 4 seasons each. They were not static like a lot of characters in Trek tend to be. Yes they have large breasts.. because some women DO have large breasts and nice figures. Does this make them about nothing more than sex?
What bothers me is when the characters dress in a sexually provocative manner when it is inconsistent with the rest of their personality -- or, in the case of T'Pol's early catsuits, with the practices of her culture.

The idea that Seven would want to dress in a skintight catsuit that is literally designed to lift and separate each individual breast is just absurd. Seven is a character who hides feelings of sexuality because she considers them a form of emotional vulnerability; she wouldn't wear a slinky, cleavage-y dress to a fancy event, for instance, and she wouldn't plausibly wear a skintight catsuit.
Have you seen how the Borg dress? They are tightly covered all over by their "armor" if you can call it that. They are held in by it. I think 7 feels safer completely contained by the suit. It's like a swaddling cloth. To wear something loose that flaps around.. that's inefficient and indicates a comfort with oneself that 7 doesn't have. She doesn't see it as kinky and cleavagy, you do.
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Old April 16 2012, 12:22 AM   #29
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Re: All about T'Pol

^Similarly, Vulcans may not have the same body/sexuality hang ups as 21st Century humans. Robes and catsuits are just clothing.
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Old April 16 2012, 12:23 AM   #30
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Re: All about T'Pol

teacake wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I don't know why people can't look past a cat suit and nice figure to the character. T'Pol and 7 were very well developed characters with great personality growth arcs that carried on over 4 seasons each. They were not static like a lot of characters in Trek tend to be. Yes they have large breasts.. because some women DO have large breasts and nice figures. Does this make them about nothing more than sex?
What bothers me is when the characters dress in a sexually provocative manner when it is inconsistent with the rest of their personality -- or, in the case of T'Pol's early catsuits, with the practices of her culture.

The idea that Seven would want to dress in a skintight catsuit that is literally designed to lift and separate each individual breast is just absurd. Seven is a character who hides feelings of sexuality because she considers them a form of emotional vulnerability; she wouldn't wear a slinky, cleavage-y dress to a fancy event, for instance, and she wouldn't plausibly wear a skintight catsuit.
Have you seen how the Borg dress? They are tightly covered all over by their "armor" if you can call it that.
Yes, you can call it that. It's body armor, not clothe.

I think 7 feels safer completely contained by the suit. It's like a swaddling cloth. To wear something loose that flaps around.. that's inefficient and indicates a comfort with oneself that 7 doesn't have.
"Loose that flaps around?" Believe it or not, there are degrees between catsuits and robes.

And, no, it's not inefficient to wear standard clothing. If anything, the catsuit is inefficient -- Jeri Ryan literally needed a wardrobe assistant to help her get into it and out of it every day. There's nothing efficient about clothing that requires two people to engage in a 15-minute operation so the wearer can go to the bathroom.

She doesn't see it as kinky and cleavagy, you do.
It literally lifts and separates each boob, and clings to every crevice of her hips and buttocks. If Seven wanted something relatively tight, she could have worn a turtleneck and sweater, without wearing something that essentially picks up each breast and draws attention to her ass crack. It's kinky -- there's no way around that.
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