Who agrees? Kirk's a womanizer!

[teacake]

It was your characterization of a slave with no control over her own life as somehow wanting to have sex with a stranger to comfort him that I find so laughable. It's a boy's fantasy, totally disconnected from the reality of slavery. Now if you want to view this as a fantasy space opera, fine, that kind of character fits right in. But people try and make Star Trek be about something, ideals and values, and if you view it through that lens it's quite a different story.

Just to be clear I don't fault Kirk at all, but any nobility on his part was about trying to escape and save his ship, not about "love" for this woman.

[J. Allen]

teacake wrote:

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It was your characterization of a slave with no control over her own life as somehow wanting to have sex with a stranger to comfort him that I find so laughable. It's a boy's fantasy, totally disconnected from the reality of slavery.

Women were often raped. Their genitalia mutilated, their babies stabbed and thrown in the compost heap to die, if the women bred too quickly. They were whipped, beaten, treated like blighted cattle.

House slaves were threatened with severe punishments. They were to be seen, not heard. If the food or service was not to the master's liking, the slave was beaten, whipped, their hair was pulled out forcefully, leaving clots of blood to scab over, and sometimes, they were killed if the "offense" was egregious enough.

I'm aware of the realities of slavery.

Now if you want to view this as a fantasy space opera, fine, that kind of character fits right in. But people try and make Star Trek be about something, ideals and values, and if you view it through that lens it's quite a different story.

I view it as Gunsmoke in space.

Just to be clear I don't fault Kirk at all, but any nobility on his part was about trying to escape and save his ship, not about "love" for this woman.

I didn't say he loved Drusilla. I said he may have been about to die, and this woman offered him comfort and solace, along with other, more physical pleasures. He was likely formulating a plan to get back to the ship, but he was, if nothing else, a realist.

[DAYoung]

teacake wrote:

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Thing is a person can be a Ladies Man and not think they are using a woman but then you have the women that fall in love with the Ladies Man and are hit with the cold reality that the Ladies Man wanted to have sex with them, not have a relationship with them. Now maybe they were a bit stupid (or a bit young) but if they called that man a Womanizer that's quite accurate to their experience.

People don't write out a contract clearly stating that this night of passion is only about sex and fun and not about a relationship. James T. Kirk certainly does not do this. He's extremely charismatic and the captain of a starship, I'm sure many women were hoping they would mean a lot more to him than a night of passion.

I'm not suggesting that ladies' men aren't part of harmful relationships. I agree: they often are. My point is that there is an important moral difference between those who set out to use someone and those who do not. And, to me, these two labels recognise this moral difference.

By the way, by noting this moral difference, I'm not absolving the ladies man of responsibility, e.g. for not recognising a lover's expectations (love) don't fit with his expectations (sex). I'm simply noting that there's a difference of intention, and that this is morally significant.

(It's also worth noting that both parties can sometimes be equally deluded: he in his no-strings fantasy, she in her romance fantasy. It can be she & she and he & he, of course.)

[J. Allen]

^ Your explanation is better, where I refer to her seeing him as noble. I believe in that scene they're both letting a little fantasy take hold of them.

[UFO]

teacake wrote:

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She was a SLAVE. In order to please her master she needed to please the man she was sent to sleep with. Her master could have her killed any time he wanted to.

So you are suggesting Kirk finally came to the realisation that he needed to have sex with her to prevent her master believing she had failed in her "mission"? I guess we're back to Kirk being "noble" again.

[Sadara]

Miss Lemon wrote:

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No, why don't you support your claim? I'd like to see some numbers:
1. How many women did Kirk kiss?
2. How many women did Kirk kiss while not having an non-sexual ulterior motive?
3. How many women did Kirk actually sleep with?

Here ya go!

http://www.thecaptainkirkpage.com/kirksex.html

This page has a look at each and every episode of the original series and counts up Kirk's little conquests, etc. It's actually a much shorter list than most people think. Context is also considered. Enjoy!

And personally, I don't think Kirk is a womanizer, especially after seeing pages like the above link.

[T'Girl]

Sadara wrote:

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Here ya go!

That website is wrong in a few places.

In The Menagerie, Kirk's reaction to the mention of Lieutenant Helen Johansson's name implies at least a sexual hook-up, and not simply coffee.

In By Any Other Name, no we don't actually see it, but the impression I received is that Kirk was screwing Kelinda. Yes we only saw kissing.

In Elaan of Troyius, Kirk and Elaan were (in one scene) rolling around on her bed, that they're lovers is (again) implied.

Elaan: "Captain, that ancient Earth custom called spanking, what is it?"

[Captain Rob]

As far as Kelinda goes. If I was Kirk; I wouldn't go sticking things into what appears to be a lucious human female on the outside. That you know is a strange alien creature from another galaxy on the inside. You never know where they might have extra teeth.

[J. Allen]

Captain Rob wrote:

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As far as Kelinda goes. If I was Kirk; I wouldn't go sticking things into what appears to be a lucious human female on the outside. That you know is a strange alien creature from another galaxy on the inside. You never know where they might have extra teeth.

I don't know, I'd probably risk it. Though I would be cautious.

[DAYoung]

I don't want your pity, BBS folks, but I've never seen 'Mirror, Mirror'.

[J. Allen]

DAYoung wrote:

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I don't want your pity, BBS folks, but I've never seen 'Mirror, Mirror'.

It's a decent episode. There are some fun moments, but it's nowhere near my favorite. Still, if you get a chance to check it out, do so.

[DAYoung]

J. Allen wrote:

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It's a decent episode. There are some fun moments, but it's nowhere near my favorite. Still, if you get a chance to check it out, do so.

I'd like to. Season 2 looks like it has some excellent episodes.

But iTunes is poor on Trek, and we don't have Netflix in Australia.

(We don't have a DVD/Blu-Ray player.)

[J. Allen]

DAYoung wrote:

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I'd like to. Season 2 looks like it has some excellent episodes.

But iTunes is poor on Trek, and we don't have Netflix in Australia.

(We don't have a DVD/Blu-Ray player.)

Ouch.

[DAYoung]

J. Allen wrote:

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Ouch.

I'll be OK.

[J. Allen]

DAYoung wrote:

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I'll be OK.

I've been wreaking my brain for the past half hour or so thinking of some (legal) way for you to watch that episode, and I can't think of one short of you having to buy a DVD player. Australia seems a bit limited on their media availability! Not to rub it in (I swear), but here in the U.S., I have a dozen ways to see the show anytime I want. It's a shame you can't do that.