Who agrees? Kirk's a womanizer!

[A beaker full of death]

Panda<3 wrote:

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If you don't agree suport yourself with more than "Because"

No. Your thesis. Support it.

[The Grim Ghost]

Sure he was. And why shouldn't he be? Having consensual sex with lots of women is fine. It's the future, they don't need to be bound by the morals of today.

Pregnancy isn't an issue (except when he had amnesia and was understandably not able to take whatever meds he needed to prevent it). STDs don't seem to be an issue. So why not?

Kirk liked women and women liked Kirk. Then they had sex. That's what grown ups do.

[J. Allen]

The Grim Ghost wrote:

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Sure he was. And why shouldn't he be? Having consensual sex with lots of women is fine. It's the future, they don't need to be bound by the morals of today.

Pregnancy isn't an issue (except when he had amnesia and was understandably not able to take whatever meds he needed to prevent it). STDs don't seem to be an issue. So why not?

Kirk liked women and women liked Kirk. Then they had sex. That's what grown ups do.

"Womanizer" has a negative connotation to it, that Kirk only used women to get what he wanted, then he tossed them aside, which I don't think he behaved that way. He was promiscuous, yes, but not a womanizer.

[teacake]

He most certainly did use them to get what he wanted when a mission was involved. Do you really think he "loved" Drusilla in Bread and Circuses?

[J. Allen]

teacake wrote:

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He most certainly did use them to get what he wanted when a mission was involved. Do you really think he "loved" Drusilla in Bread and Circuses?

No, he definitely had sex with her, and likely because he wanted to. I don't think he loved her, but I also don't think he was just using her as a means to an end. As for when a mission is involved, I don't think that counts, as his goal is to resolve a mission that means life or death for his crew or the Federation in general. It's why I think "womanizer" is too harsh a term for Kirk, because I don't think he saw them merely as objects to satisfy his sexual desire. He loved women, as Jonas said. Definitely promiscuous, though, and I have no problem with that.

[AcousticKoi]

mirror mirror sulu yes, but Kirk no.

[teacake]

Of course he was using her as a means to an end in that setting (being held captive and sent a slave woman to spend the night with). I assume when you say he wasn't "just" using her you mean he enjoyed it as well, thought she was beautiful, had compassion for her etc.. This really doesn't negate the using part. It's kind of repulsive because she's a sex slave, not just a beautiful girl who he sleeps with mutually to further a mission. She's in his room because she was ordered to be there and she cannot say no.

[DAYoung]

Has anyone yet distinguished between "womaniser" and "ladies' man"?

To me, the first implies a certain disrespect of women, i.e. treating them solely as means to the end of one's sexual pleasure. The second doesn't. It suggests someone who definitely enjoys the company of women, and may be promiscuous, but does this without the the mercenary outlook of the womaniser.

I reckon Kirk, for the most part, is a ladies' man.

[teacake]

Womanizer is what someone hurt by that behavior says, Ladies Man is what the envious call it.

[Gov Kodos]

Oh, dear, what of l'amour?

[DAYoung]

teacake wrote:

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Womanizer is what someone hurt by that behavior says, Ladies Man is what the envious call it.

I was thinking of how I use the words. I'm certainly not hurt by it. Envious? Possibly. Usually more amused than jealous. (The examples I've known were often very lonely.)

[teacake]

Thing is a person can be a Ladies Man and not think they are using a woman but then you have the women that fall in love with the Ladies Man and are hit with the cold reality that the Ladies Man wanted to have sex with them, not have a relationship with them. Now maybe they were a bit stupid (or a bit young) but if they called that man a Womanizer that's quite accurate to their experience.

People don't write out a contract clearly stating that this night of passion is only about sex and fun and not about a relationship. James T. Kirk certainly does not do this. He's extremely charismatic and the captain of a starship, I'm sure many women were hoping they would mean a lot more to him than a night of passion.

[J. Allen]

teacake wrote:

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Of course he was using her as a means to an end in that setting (being held captive and sent a slave woman to spend the night with). I assume when you say he wasn't "just" using her you mean he enjoyed it as well, thought she was beautiful, had compassion for her etc.. This really doesn't negate the using part. It's kind of repulsive because she's a sex slave, not just a beautiful girl who he sleeps with mutually to further a mission. She's in his room because she was ordered to be there and she cannot say no.

If she would have said no, Kirk wouldn't have forced her, or convinced her to do so at the risk of her own life. Kirk loves women, and he doesn't abuse them. He doesn't use them and cast them aside. In this case, he thought he was going to die, and a lovely woman asked him to be with her.

Was she a sex slave? Likely. We know she was a slave. Is Kirk the kind of person who would feel right forcing a girl to have sex with him, just to satisfy his wants? I don't think so.

Plus, I just watched that episode the other night, so the details are still fresh. Kirk refused outright at first. Then she cajoled and convinced him, because she likely felt the same way. A good looking, noble man who was likely to die the next day, and so she wanted to bring him comfort. Kirk acquiesced because he did find her attractive, and he did believe he was likely to die the next day.

Also, to be completely fair, we never saw it, or even the hints of it happen. We saw them kiss, then we saw Kirk fully clothed, laying on a single couch. At least with Elaan of Troyius, Kirk and the Doleman were seen together, with Kirk putting his boots back on.

[teacake]

J. Allen wrote:

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[

Plus, I just watched that episode the other night, so the details are still fresh. Kirk refused outright at first. Then she cajoled and convinced him, because she likely felt the same way. A good looking, noble man who was likely to die the next day, and so she wanted to bring him comfort. Kirk acquiesced because he did find her attractive, and he did believe he was likely to die the next day.

What is this a Frazetta painting?

She was a SLAVE. In order to please her master she needed to please the man she was sent to sleep with. Her master could have her killed any time he wanted to.

[J. Allen]

teacake wrote:

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What is this a Frazetta painting?

She was a SLAVE. In order to please her master she needed to please the man she was sent to sleep with. Her master could have her killed any time he wanted to.

Kirk could have threatened her with death if she didn't try to please him. He didn't. A womanizer would have used that to his advantage.

The fact is, though, that she was a slave. Kirk was going to die the next day. Kirk refused at first, on the grounds that he believed it was all a setup. Drusilla convinced him otherwise. Even though there is room to say that they had sex, there's just too much open to interpretation to say what all was involved, and how mutual it was. I even went back and watched that scene in the episode before I responded, just to make sure my retelling of the events was accurate.