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Old April 10 2012, 02:56 PM   #76
Guy Gardener
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Scorpion not Scorpio.

(Nice-one!)

Does Astrology work when you travel back in time to before you were born?
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Old April 10 2012, 03:06 PM   #77
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

The Hologram Chakotay was probably written once they took the Janeway/Chakotay pairing off the table. The writers whipped up the Chakotay/Seven pairing out of whole cloth and didn't derive it from normal character development. What you're all saying makes sense, and the pairing would have worked had it been properly developed, but what the writers wrote didn't work.

Granted, with how the story ended up, the writers make sense if you're willing to accept their idea that Seven suddenly wanted Chakotay near the end of season seven in "Human Error" when for three years she didn't give any indication that I can remember as to her wanting him.

I believe in attraction at first sight, and gradually building attraction over a period of time but not... no attraction for years and then suddenly wanting someone's babies. That doesn't fly with me. By contrast, with the Paris and Torres relationship, one could see it gradually build.

Seven didn't show her emotions much, true, but you also can't expect someone to believe, "She grew to love him over the years and never showed or hinted at anything other than a professional relationship to him or to the audience until Human Error." It might be repressed emotion, but it doesn't look like it. It just looks like bad writing.

I'm sorry, I'm just a stickler for proper character development and I don't like characters doing things out of the blue like that. It wouldn't have been too much trouble for them to say that she developed feelings for Chakotay over the years secretly. Just mentioning that once would have been better. I'm not angry or anything, I just like to analyze plots and characters.
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Old April 10 2012, 03:15 PM   #78
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

You're forgetting about the cortical implant that turns off her brain if she generates emotional reactions to extreme for the Borg's liking. It was almost impossible for seven to fall in love romantically. She could only create a relationship logically without accidentally killing herself. Which is something we all do, as we plan futures with people we barely know and do not understand, and should not trust or have faith in.
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Old April 10 2012, 03:20 PM   #79
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Yeah, I've done that myself about some girls I've known, I must admit.

I suppose the borg considered romance to be worse than other emotions such as anger. Romance is one of the best emotions I know of for causing distraction and thus inefficiency.
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Old April 10 2012, 03:38 PM   #80
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Seven had a perfectly complete and healthy subconscious she developed in Unimatrix Zero in real time for decades, which quietly fed her broken conciousness the bare bones of what she needed to make it in the world without giving away her secret life, till she finally got on top of all this individuality bullshit

Everyone forgets Auxum, but he so should have been the guy for Seven waiting at the end of the book.

You can say that up till unimatrix zero, even though awake, she didn't know it, Seven.... "Anika" was involved and content so of course she didn't go on the prowl.

After the collapse of Unimatirix Zero, that both meant that NOW she knew that she did have a boyfriend who she was supposed to be faithful to... And that she was in an unworkable long distance relationship that she needed to deep six.

You can see how she might be conflicted somewhat in so far as what step to take next with Neo, I mean Auxum?
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Old April 10 2012, 03:43 PM   #81
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Yeah, conflicted. I notice we keep answering each other by editing our posts, it's kind of awkward. They should get one of those features that says if something has changed, etc.

= Done editing this post =
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Old April 10 2012, 03:59 PM   #82
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

They do.

Eventually.

little yellow legend at the bottom of the post.

And the post is locked after 24 hours.

My spelling is almost as atrocious as my typing accuracy.
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Old April 10 2012, 04:10 PM   #83
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Yeah, I guess they did develop some things in Unimatrix Zero, which was the precursor for Human Error.

Development was rather rushed, but I guess that's the best developed romance they could do given Mulgrew's stance on Janeway/Chakotay. They had to kind of hurry it.

I know what you mean about typing accuracy, sometimes I won't notice really obvious typos. My spelling is not always impeccable either.

Thanks for the tip about the little yellow legend, I will keep an eye out for it.
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Old April 10 2012, 04:33 PM   #84
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

You know how I mentioned cuddling in natural law?

Apparently, Jeri thought that cuddling or longing glances or something as a follow on from Human Error would be champion... She was told to stop "thinking" and just read her damn lines.

Voyager didn't just have no development, it was against policy from the Network to endanger the brand by making the casual audience they were chasing "think" hard enough to cause spotting.

Do you see a pattern here?
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Old April 10 2012, 07:45 PM   #85
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

I never liked the whole C/7 thing; it just appeared out of the blue with very little background in my opinion, plus the idea of Seven getting together with Chakotay after having a romance with a holographic version of him is just plain creepy.

It was already said in the thread that Seven has the cortical implant that bascially shuts down her vital systems if she experiences hightened emotions, so you have to wonder how that all worked (of course I guess it could be just as easily supposed that the Doctor removed the implant at some point...).

If the writers had wanted C/7 to work they should have shown some sort of degredation in the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay (because even in Endgame there was still more freaking chemistry between the two of them than Chakotay and Seven!) and then shown how Chakotay and Seven's relationship developed as a result.

I will always be a J/C shipper, and though it never happened on the show I say that something could have happened in season 7 (before all the C/7 nonsense) after "Unimatrix Zero" (I mean, come on, them holding hands on the bridge! How does that not scream romantic subtext?).

And when they returned home, absolutely they could have had a romantic relationship. As for Janeway being 'fate's bitch' I'm going to quote the good Captain here and say 'the hell with it.' Let Janeway have a little happiness.
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Old April 11 2012, 01:02 AM   #86
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Seven had a perfectly complete and healthy subconscious she developed in Unimatrix Zero in real time for decades, which quietly fed her broken conciousness the bare bones of what she needed to make it in the world without giving away her secret life, till she finally got on top of all this individuality bullshit
You can say that up till unimatrix zero, even though awake, she didn't know it, Seven.... "Anika" was involved and content so of course she didn't go on the prowl.
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You're forgetting about the cortical implant that turns off her brain if she generates emotional reactions to extreme for the Borg's liking. It was almost impossible for seven to fall in love romantically. She could only create a relationship logically without accidentally killing herself. Which is something we all do, as we plan futures with people we barely know and do not understand, and should not trust or have faith in.
This is all good stuff. And I think if you want someone to plan a logical relationship Chakotay works well. Though we did not see any falling in love they did work together for years and has gotten all of that "getting to know you stuff" out of the way without any pressure at all. You can see how awkward 7 is when there is an expectation of getting to know you on her date with whathisname.

Lipton wrote: View Post
T
I believe in attraction at first sight, and gradually building attraction over a period of time but not... no attraction for years and then suddenly wanting someone's babies. That doesn't fly with me. By contrast, with the Paris and Torres relationship, one could see it gradually build.
I think wanting his babies is overstating it, she wanted a relationship and any babies or long term success was way down the track. Just like anyone in a first or in her case second relationship who has no idea what the future holds. Makes sense for her, for him I would have thought he was looking for more stability.

I have known quite a few people who had no attraction for years and then suddenly connected and ended up with someone. This is also I think more likely to happen in a setting like Voyager where socializing doesn't proceed like in real life because there are never any new people coming into the mix and there's no way to escape from the people you're with. Just about any relationship scenario is possible for humans.

As to the writers giving up on J/C by the season 7, the impression I got from what Mulgrew says was it was off the table a lot earlier than that.
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Last edited by teacake; April 11 2012 at 01:52 AM.
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Old April 11 2012, 01:13 AM   #87
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I never liked the whole C/7 thing; it just appeared out of the blue with very little background in my opinion, plus the idea of Seven getting together with Chakotay after having a romance with a holographic version of him is just plain creepy.
I also thought that was creepy but for 7 it was logical. And who knows how it is viewed when that option is always on the table, something we don't have. Trek doesn't explore the ethics of who you are sleeping with in the holodeck. Is it just one step up from fantasizing about someone? I would say it's a lot more than that but I don't live in that century where playing in holomovies has replaced passively viewing them.
If the writers had wanted C/7 to work they should have shown some sort of degredation in the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay (because even in Endgame there was still more freaking chemistry between the two of them than Chakotay and Seven!) and then shown how Chakotay and Seven's relationship developed as a result.
See I think Janeway had chemistry with EVERYONE. She's a wooer of her crew. She has that whole touching you just as she asks you to go on the impossible mission thing. She's incredibly personal in all her interactions.

Of course I'm not denying there was subtext there between Janeway and Chakotay. There was overt subtext between her and Chakotay and her and 7.
And when they returned home, absolutely they could have had a romantic relationship. As for Janeway being 'fate's bitch' I'm going to quote the good Captain here and say 'the hell with it.' Let Janeway have a little happiness.
In the books Janeway and Chakotay got together, declared their love, slept together for ONE night and then they promptly killed her. Which is like the biggest asshole move ever. Then they reduced Chakotay to a blubbering emo wreck for another book which sure didn't help his character any (apparently this was "character development".)

Though I've always enjoyed my J/7 I do think Janeway is more heterosexual than not and if they actually gave her Chakotay as a relationship I would be quite happy for her. I suspect if she does come back from Q-death in the next book there will be all this bullshit angst between them that will keep them separated much like all the bullshit angst between Picard and Beverly and Troi and Riker because they were having babies which apparently turns Starfleet officers in their 40's and 50's into soap opera head cases.
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Old April 11 2012, 03:16 AM   #88
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

No one new to the mix?

What about the Equinox 5?

"I don't care if you're a mass murderer, take your shirt off."

Meanwhile...

Kim fraks children.

Seven had a baby.

Kim didn't try to boff him because he was a him.

Remember One?

That was certainly a mother and son relationship, and Seven was well into it.

Maybe like the doctor she was scared off further babies after the tragic and early death of their kid? Then having Mulcahey (the genetic sample donor) wandering about like a Ghost couldn't have helped.

Being scared of babies is one reason to avoid a relationship with the opposite sex.

Um.

I've often talked about how mangled her sexual organs probably were in the beginning (and her internal physiology in general. The Doctor kept pulling out of her chunks of metal the size of your fist that kept growing back. Everything important yet ordinairy was pushed up over and into the strangest locals.) so when she hit on Harry in Revulsion... It's quite likely that she didn't have a working vagina, or a vagina at all. Just a storm of scar tissue and half sunk technology, but anyway if at that point, so early in her development/recovery Seven was like a barbie doll down there but she was offering sex to young Kim...

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Old April 11 2012, 03:39 AM   #89
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake wrote: View Post
Violet.Phoenix wrote: View Post
I never liked the whole C/7 thing; it just appeared out of the blue with very little background in my opinion, plus the idea of Seven getting together with Chakotay after having a romance with a holographic version of him is just plain creepy.
I also thought that was creepy but for 7 it was logical. And who knows how it is viewed when that option is always on the table, something we don't have. Trek doesn't explore the ethics of who you are sleeping with in the holodeck. Is it just one step up from fantasizing about someone? I would say it's a lot more than that but I don't live in that century where playing in holomovies has replaced passively viewing them.
I can maybe see the logic in her seeing Chakotay's qualities as a command officer being logical in the sense that he is a well-rounded individual, but it just didn't work from my perspective. I just found it creepy because it was a hologram of a real person, if it had been another hologram it wouldn't have been as weird.

If the writers had wanted C/7 to work they should have shown some sort of degredation in the relationship between Janeway and Chakotay (because even in Endgame there was still more freaking chemistry between the two of them than Chakotay and Seven!) and then shown how Chakotay and Seven's relationship developed as a result
See I think Janeway had chemistry with EVERYONE. She's a wooer of her crew. She has that whole touching you just as she asks you to go on the impossible mission thing. She's incredibly personal in all her interactions.
I totally agree. Janeway was always one to reach out to her crew in her own way; she wanted them to know that she cared about them, which I think was really important since they were stranded in the DQ and all.

Of course I'm not denying there was subtext there between Janeway and Chakotay. There was overt subtext between her and Chakotay and her and 7.
I'd say the subtext between her and 7 was more of a mother-daughter thing, but that's just me.

And when they returned home, absolutely they could have had a romantic relationship. As for Janeway being 'fate's bitch' I'm going to quote the good Captain here and say 'the hell with it.' Let Janeway have a little happiness.
In the books Janeway and Chakotay got together, declared their love, slept together for ONE night and then they promptly killed her. Which is like the biggest asshole move ever. Then they reduced Chakotay to a blubbering emo wreck for another book which sure didn't help his character any (apparently this was "character development".)

Though I've always enjoyed my J/7 I do think Janeway is more heterosexual than not and if they actually gave her Chakotay as a relationship I would be quite happy for her. I suspect if she does come back from Q-death in the next book there will be all this bullshit angst between them that will keep them separated much like all the bullshit angst between Picard and Beverly and Troi and Riker because they were having babies which apparently turns Starfleet officers in their 40's and 50's into soap opera head cases.
Ah yes, the novels. I was glad to see that Janeway and Chakotay finally got together in the books, but it was one freaking night (better than nothing, but still). You see I'm glad that Chakotay got some character development, but I think to myself "they developed his character by killing off another pivotal character". That just seems a little off to me.

Ugh, Before Dishonor. Don't even get me started on that frakking book.

I'm honestly not a J/7 shipper (because I view their relationship as mother-daughter) but I think that Janeway could be with anyone she wanted to and it would work, because it's Janeway.

If Janeway comes back in the new novel and actually gets to pursue a relationship with Chakotay I will be one happy bird . But there will be angst, no doubt about it. I can understand why, but at the same time I'm going to wonder is all Chakotay can do is wallow in angstness?

On a side note, I find it really ironic that Picard and Crusher get married and have a child while Janeway and Chakotay go through hell and only get one real night together.
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Old April 11 2012, 04:23 AM   #90
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Re: Play matchmaker for Janeway

teacake: Well, I didn't literally mean she wanted his babies right then... and yes, sudden delayed attraction does happen in real life sometimes, but I was speaking in terms of stories. In my opinion, it's a lot easier to get away with that in real life than in a story.

And yes, I practically threw the book across the room when I learned that they killed Janeway just after she got together with Chakotay!!!

Guy Gardener: Yeah, Seven was probably pretty messed up inside at that
point... in all senses!

I do see a pattern with "thinking". A lot of it probably had to do with trying to do DS9 and VOY at once for years. It seems like VOY got the short end of the stick with that, just like the beginning of DS9 got the short end of the stick when TNG was still going.

By the time DS9 ended, the trek people were so burnt out from doing two series, they just wanted to get VOY over with so they could move on to ENT and everyone could just focus on it.
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