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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 8 2012, 03:01 AM   #16
Ian Keldon
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

JD wrote: View Post
Oh, and one other things that's bugged me is all of the people wanting more white Christian heterosexual male heroes in Trek Lit. I'm sorry, we've already got plenty of those in other franchises, it's time to let other groups get some attention too.
Why should they be excluded from a society that supposedly embraces ALL diversity?

To exclude "traditional values" and WASP characters would be hypocritical.
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Old April 8 2012, 04:06 AM   #17
Christopher
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Oh, and one other things that's bugged me is all of the people wanting more white Christian heterosexual male heroes in Trek Lit. I'm sorry, we've already got plenty of those in other franchises, it's time to let other groups get some attention too.
Why should they be excluded from a society that supposedly embraces ALL diversity?
Nobody said anything about "excluding." The point is that there are already plenty of those included along with everyone else, so there's no sense in claiming they're somehow not represented. Indeed, white heterosexual males are greatly overrepresented in Trek compared to the real demographics of the human race, just as they are in most television series, so it's downright ridiculous to claim that there aren't enough of them.
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Old April 8 2012, 04:32 AM   #18
JD
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Oh, and one other things that's bugged me is all of the people wanting more white Christian heterosexual male heroes in Trek Lit. I'm sorry, we've already got plenty of those in other franchises, it's time to let other groups get some attention too.
Why should they be excluded from a society that supposedly embraces ALL diversity?
Nobody said anything about "excluding." The point is that there are already plenty of those included along with everyone else, so there's no sense in claiming they're somehow not represented. Indeed, white heterosexual males are greatly overrepresented in Trek compared to the real demographics of the human race, just as they are in most television series, so it's downright ridiculous to claim that there aren't enough of them.
^Yes, this is what I meant. I don't think we should exclude anyone, I just don't think it's worth complaining about how few of them there are, when a lot of characters, both in Trek and other franchises, are white, hetero males.
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Old April 8 2012, 04:52 AM   #19
MatthiasRussell
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

My feeling is that in the 24th century UFP race, religion, culture, sexual orientation, etc would be non issues so Trek should show these diverse individuals working together but not call attention to their diferences. Even in TOS, there was no mention of the black, asian, or Russian individuals on the bridge. They were just there and no issue was made of it. When Kirk and Uhura kissed it was shocking to viewers but the race factor was a non-issue to the characters.

I didn't like how Sisko made a big deal about race in DS9 because he never knew a world where color was an issue. Sure those visions from 1930s Earth impacted him but I felt they played up the race issue too much afterwards.

I love the diversity and unity in Titan; it is one of the best things about that series. However, I do find it odd that the diversity of that crew is so out of the ordinary in that time period.

And I would like to add my voice to praising the authors for making Trek characters as diverse as they have. The novels have really captured the spirit of unity and inclusiveness far more than tv ever did or perhaps could. It is refreshing and often makes me re-evaluate my feelings on certain issues.
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Old April 8 2012, 03:22 PM   #20
Greg Cox
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Oh, and one other things that's bugged me is all of the people wanting more white Christian heterosexual male heroes in Trek Lit. I'm sorry, we've already got plenty of those in other franchises, it's time to let other groups get some attention too.
Why should they be excluded from a society that supposedly embraces ALL diversity?
Nobody said anything about "excluding." The point is that there are already plenty of those included along with everyone else, so there's no sense in claiming they're somehow not represented. Indeed, white heterosexual males are greatly overrepresented in Trek compared to the real demographics of the human race, just as they are in most television series, so it's downright ridiculous to claim that there aren't enough of them.
Especially since we've already got PIke, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, Picard, Riker, O'Brien, Paris, Archer, Trip, and that British guy on Enterprise whose name I just can't come up with right now . . . .
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Old April 8 2012, 03:24 PM   #21
Defcon
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post

Why should they be excluded from a society that supposedly embraces ALL diversity?
Nobody said anything about "excluding." The point is that there are already plenty of those included along with everyone else, so there's no sense in claiming they're somehow not represented. Indeed, white heterosexual males are greatly overrepresented in Trek compared to the real demographics of the human race, just as they are in most television series, so it's downright ridiculous to claim that there aren't enough of them.
Especially since we've already got PIke, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, Picard, Riker, O'Brien, Paris, Archer, Trip, and that British guy on Enterprise whose name I just can't come up with right now . . . .
Reed?
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Old April 8 2012, 04:30 PM   #22
Greg Cox
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Defcon wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

Nobody said anything about "excluding." The point is that there are already plenty of those included along with everyone else, so there's no sense in claiming they're somehow not represented. Indeed, white heterosexual males are greatly overrepresented in Trek compared to the real demographics of the human race, just as they are in most television series, so it's downright ridiculous to claim that there aren't enough of them.
Especially since we've already got PIke, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, Picard, Riker, O'Brien, Paris, Archer, Trip, and that British guy on Enterprise whose name I just can't come up with right now . . . .
Reed?
That's the one!
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Old April 8 2012, 04:49 PM   #23
BritishSeaPower
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Heck, Kirk's last name means Church! The evidence we have is that Kirk's a believer in something like the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God. McCoy expresses similar sentiments as well.

Picard has been demonstrated as a non-believer, though never outright said. Sisko is much the same before his embraces the Prophets, but that's more "spiritual" than religious. I'm pretty sure that Joseph Sisko is implied to be religious as well. But it's been a while since I've seen Image in the Sand.
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Old April 8 2012, 08:33 PM   #24
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I didn't like how Sisko made a big deal about race in DS9 because he never knew a world where color was an issue. Sure those visions from 1930s Earth impacted him but I felt they played up the race issue too much afterwards.
1. "Far Beyond the Stars" featured visions of the 1950s, not the 1930s.

2. Sisko didn't "make a big deal about race." He expressed discomfort once, in one episode, with the Vic Fontaine holoprogram, because it ignored the historical reality about how black Americans were actually oppressed in early 1960s Las Vegas. That's a completely reasonable concern to have, as it essentially boils down to being concerned that real history was being (no pun intended) "whitewashed." He at no point expresses a belief that black Americans Humans of his era were in any way oppressed, nor any prejudice whatsoever against white American Humans, nor does he display any sort of fixation on race. (And, by the end of the episode, he is persuaded that Kassidy's argument--that Vic represents history as it should have been rather than as it was--is valid.)
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Old April 10 2012, 05:18 AM   #25
Turtletrekker
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Defcon wrote: View Post
Brikar99 wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Oh, and one other things that's bugged me is all of the people wanting more white Christian heterosexual male heroes in Trek Lit. I'm sorry, we've already got plenty of those in other franchises, it's time to let other groups get some attention too.
Maybe I don't pay enough attention around here, but is that something people have actively been asking for?
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=170215
I am reminded of these threads from almost (Oh. My. God.) four years ago...

Ah, Dayton3. Whatever happened to him, anyway? Not that I want him to come back or anything...
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Last edited by Turtletrekker; April 10 2012 at 05:35 AM.
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Old April 10 2012, 11:42 AM   #26
Sjaddix
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Sci wrote: View Post
MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
I didn't like how Sisko made a big deal about race in DS9 because he never knew a world where color was an issue. Sure those visions from 1930s Earth impacted him but I felt they played up the race issue too much afterwards.
1. "Far Beyond the Stars" featured visions of the 1950s, not the 1930s.

2. Sisko didn't "make a big deal about race." He expressed discomfort once, in one episode, with the Vic Fontaine holoprogram, because it ignored the historical reality about how black Americans were actually oppressed in early 1960s Las Vegas. That's a completely reasonable concern to have, as it essentially boils down to being concerned that real history was being (no pun intended) "whitewashed." He at no point expresses a belief that black Americans Humans of his era were in any way oppressed, nor any prejudice whatsoever against white American Humans, nor does he display any sort of fixation on race. (And, by the end of the episode, he is persuaded that Kassidy's argument--that Vic represents history as it should have been rather than as it was--is valid.)
lol that is bad way to do history, history about what was not how it should have been. we got plenty of school boards right now trying to "sanitize" history books so white people don't have to feel bad about any of their ancestors actions in the new world.

still yes no need for more straight white males. increases for every other group are warranted. Although trek is towards the top tier in scifi, it could certainly be better.
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Old April 10 2012, 02:18 PM   #27
Christopher
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Sjaddix wrote: View Post
lol that is bad way to do history, history about what was not how it should have been.
But the Vic Fontaine holoprogram wasn't a history course, it was a work of entertainment for people who presumably have already gotten a thorough history education, but who want an entertainment experience that isn't as depressing as a realistic depiction of history would be. You might as well complain that Star Trek is a bad way to teach astrophysics.
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Old April 10 2012, 02:56 PM   #28
MatthiasRussell
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Yes!!! What Star Trek needs is more equations!!! Could we get some orbital mechanics problems in trek lit? (With the answers in the back of the book)
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Old April 10 2012, 03:25 PM   #29
Smitty
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Especially since we've already got PIke, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, Picard, Riker, O'Brien, Paris, Archer, Trip, and that British guy on Enterprise whose name I just can't come up with right now . . . .
Well, they might meeting the white male part of the equation but I do no recall any of them being particularly christian so they do not count on that regard. Although I do believe they all have expressed their heterosexual tendencies.

PS - Greg Cox, I am almost finished with the Rings of Time, as in I am at chapter 26. Awesome! Thank you!
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Old April 10 2012, 03:29 PM   #30
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Re: The Pro-Diversity in Trek Lit thread

Smitty wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Especially since we've already got PIke, Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, Picard, Riker, O'Brien, Paris, Archer, Trip, and that British guy on Enterprise whose name I just can't come up with right now . . . .
Well, they might meeting the white male part of the equation but I do no recall any of them being particularly christian so they do not count on that regard. Although I do believe they all have expressed their heterosexual tendencies.
I don't think the TV shows ever commented on Pike's sexuality or religious affiliation.
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