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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old March 29 2012, 09:51 AM   #31
C.E. Evans
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

There's no doubt that Sisko truly believes he's doing the right thing, but that's generally how good men make bad mistakes, IMO.
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Old March 30 2012, 03:10 PM   #32
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

I have to be honest I wasn't that bothered by the darker turn that Sisko took in this novel. It might not have been the direction that I would have taken him in, but his internal logic as to why he was doing what he was made total sense. Well to me at least.

And there's plenty of scope for this to be addressed. It started with him connecting with Commander Rogeiro at the end of RBoE and will no doubt continue with the upcoming duology.

Does anyone know if there are any plans to tie up the whole Illiena Ghemor/ Ascendants storyline though? That's the only thing that annoyed me about this book, all the references! I wish they'd do a DS9 version of Full Circle and resolve those plots.

The only other thing I seem to have missed in my first read (I'm re-reading for the 1st time just now) is the references the OP made to a space station in the Gamma Quadrant?
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Old March 30 2012, 03:20 PM   #33
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Saumer wrote: View Post
The only other thing I seem to have missed in my first read (I'm re-reading for the 1st time just now) is the references the OP made to a space station in the Gamma Quadrant?
That's speculation. The cover to the upcoming novel Raise the Dawn, part two of a Typhon Pact duology by David R. George III, shows a Federation space station under construction next to the Bajoran Wormhole. Some have conjectured that it may be a station being constructed on the Gamma Quadrant end of the wormhole, while others have guessed that it's a replacement for DS9. But we don't actually know what it is, and probably won't know until the duology comes out.
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Old March 30 2012, 04:05 PM   #34
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Many of history's great heros and explorers had terrible personal lives. My personal hero- Ernest Shackleton loved the concept of his family and wrote some touching letters home but was a terrible husband when at home.

I was angry when I read rough beasts and thought DRG III did Sisko a terrible injustice. I've read the book 3 times now and, although I still disagree with Sisko's abandonment, I've come to terms with it because I can believe a character such as Sisko would not be good around the house for long periods. And as DRG III pointed out, Sisko and Kassidy fight often in the show with him leaving her once before.

The 2 things in particular that irk me is that Sisko didn't leave Kassidy, she threw him out. All the blame is not on him. She made him miserable for wanting to go work on that archeological dig and never tried to understand his spiritual side. Also, why did Sisko have to divorce her? Why not just stay separated? I felt since she threw him out, he should let the divorce be her move to initiate. With that thought, I thought him explaining himself to her via a later was cowardly.

But DRG III tells a good story. I don't think his next 2 books will disappoint.
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Old March 30 2012, 04:51 PM   #35
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

The most important thing to Sisko I believe is his family. DS9 was a somewhat stable environment to raise his son in. The idea he could cause his family harm by staying had to be hard on him & tugged at him in ways we couldn't imagine.
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Old March 30 2012, 07:27 PM   #36
Rush Limborg
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

bok2384 wrote: View Post
I agree with rfmcdpei, I was saddened and angry at the development (at Sisko, not David George), so much so I flung the book across the room at the end of that scene.
That's pretty much how I felt when I first heard about the end of Trill: Unjoined.

I was even angrier when I read the scene--and Ezri's reasoning for the decision.

To be honest, though...it did seem out of character (especially seeing as her memories of an incident in Avatar were all wrong). At least in RBOE, you could kinda-sorta understand Sisko's reasoning.

However, we'll see how, and indeed if, George deals with this in the upcoming duology.
Agreed. And the given "back-cover summary" of the book implies that, at the very least, he will.

Next up: let's hope David Mack picks up from the cliffhangar of ZSG very soon...and addresses the triangle, too, while we're at it.

Still--I just hope I won't have reason to throw that one accross the room....
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Old March 30 2012, 09:04 PM   #37
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Forget the in-universe stuff, when you have one of the most visible African-American sci-fi heroes runs out on his family and become a dead-beat dad then you have to think about what you are doing. Literature doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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Old March 30 2012, 09:11 PM   #38
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

...but isn't that effectively giving characters "special treatment"?

Oh, we can't make this character X because they're of demographic Y...we'd be catering to a negative stereotype.

It reminds me of the "evil gays" stereotype and the notion that writers shouldn't be allowed to write homosexual characters that might behave in less than virtuous manners.

Trust me, plenty of gay people act like jerks. It's not a stereotype, it's reality. Plenty of people of other orientations -also- act like jerks.
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Old March 30 2012, 09:18 PM   #39
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Forget the in-universe stuff, when you have one of the most visible African-American sci-fi heroes runs out on his family and become a dead-beat dad then you have to think about what you are doing. Literature doesn't exist in a vacuum.
You know perfectly well that's a false and dishonest characterization. He became convinced that his family was in danger if he stayed with them, and since he loves them more than anything, he felt he had to leave them to protect them. That's not "running out" or being a "deadbeat."
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Old March 30 2012, 10:24 PM   #40
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Forget the in-universe stuff, when you have one of the most visible African-American sci-fi heroes runs out on his family and become a dead-beat dad then you have to think about what you are doing. Literature doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Actually, I think this is the strongest argument against Sisko divorcing Kassidy. I think it's completely reasonable to say that it would be preferable to have Star Trek's most prominent African-American male character not be depicted as having a divorce.

But I also think we need to look at what Sisko is actually being portrayed as doing. He is not being portrayed as "running out" on his family; Kassidy threw him out, and his decision to divorce Kassidy is predicated on his belief that this is the only way to protect her.

Further, he is not becoming a "deadbeat dad." A deadbeat dad is one who does not fulfill his obligations for child support. Sisko is becoming a divorced father, yes. But there is no indication that he's failing to provide Kassidy with the financial support he owes her as his ex-wife, or that he's violating any custody agreements. And while it may be sad that they're divorcing, bear in mind that he's rejoined Starfleet and is serving the Federation by protecting it -- including his family. It's not like he's refusing to pay child support and blowing all his money on gambling.
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Old March 30 2012, 10:26 PM   #41
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Sci wrote: View Post
Further, he is not becoming a "deadbeat dad." A deadbeat dad is one who does not fulfill his obligations for child support. Sisko is becoming a divorced father, yes. But there is no indication that he's failing to provide Kassidy with the financial support he owes her as his ex-wife, or that he's violating any custody agreements. And while it may be sad that they're divorcing, bear in mind that he's rejoined Starfleet and is serving the Federation by protecting it -- including his family. It's not like he's refusing to pay child support and blowing all his money on gambling.
Particularly since the Federation is a post-scarcity, moneyless society, so the family would have no need for financial support. The phrase "deadbeat dad" doesn't even apply.
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Old March 30 2012, 11:51 PM   #42
C.E. Evans
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Sci wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Forget the in-universe stuff, when you have one of the most visible African-American sci-fi heroes runs out on his family and become a dead-beat dad then you have to think about what you are doing. Literature doesn't exist in a vacuum.
Actually, I think this is the strongest argument against Sisko divorcing Kassidy. I think it's completely reasonable to say that it would be preferable to have Star Trek's most prominent African-American male character not be depicted as having a divorce.
That's it in a nutshell. While the reasons are many and varied, the percentage of African-American families in which the father isn't there is extremely high, high enough that it can be said to more common than not.
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Old March 31 2012, 08:41 AM   #43
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Further, he is not becoming a "deadbeat dad." A deadbeat dad is one who does not fulfill his obligations for child support. Sisko is becoming a divorced father, yes. But there is no indication that he's failing to provide Kassidy with the financial support he owes her as his ex-wife, or that he's violating any custody agreements. And while it may be sad that they're divorcing, bear in mind that he's rejoined Starfleet and is serving the Federation by protecting it -- including his family. It's not like he's refusing to pay child support and blowing all his money on gambling.
Particularly since the Federation is a post-scarcity, moneyless society, so the family would have no need for financial support. The phrase "deadbeat dad" doesn't even apply.
Bajor is on the edge of the Federation not sure the same rules apply although its not like the Bajorans would let the family of their Emissary starve to death anyway. But I agree on the not existing in a vacuum stuff. Might have been better to kill them if your going to go this route.
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Old March 31 2012, 10:34 AM   #44
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Personally, I feel that Sisko's reasoning is very much in character. He's acted like this before, been trough depression before. And people like that, are more likely to get into a depression again. We know that some pretty intense things have happened to Sisko and his family in the 4 year gap. This left the relationship between Ben and Kas strained. He feels responsible for that.

NOW, THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!

The last time he was responsible for the wellbeing and safety of his wife and son (Wolf 359) his wife died and he nearly lost his son. He will ALWAYS feel responsible for this. He feels that similair situations happened again (even if we don't know the details). Things ended better this time, both Kas and Rebecca are still fine, but he won't let that happen again. He feels that they are better of without them.

Is that really the best thing to do? No, ofcourse not. Bad things will happen, no matter what. But when you are in the state of mind Ben is in, it does seem the best thing. People will mostly not understand that, because they have never been actually depressed. I'm not talking about feeling bummed out, but an actual depression. You don't make the right decessions then, you run away from things. Sisko's done that before (taking the assignment at Utopia Planetia after Jennifer died, wanting to look into civilian duty instead of going to DS9, taking Jake and leaving DS9 when Jadzia died).

No one bitched or complained when all of this happened on the show, and couldn't wait to see what was going to happen next. Now, DRGIII does something COMPLETELY INTO CHARACTER FOR SISKO, and people are hating. Pretty weird.....
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Old March 31 2012, 10:50 AM   #45
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Re: The Fall of Ben Sisko

Peoplewill mostly not understand that, because they have never been actually depressed. I'm not talking about feeling bummed out, but an actual depression. You don't make the right decessions then, you run away from things.
You make a very good point. Unless you've suffered depression first hand, or been there for a friend or loved one who's going through it (and even in many cases of the latter), there's a big wall of ignorance - people often don't realize that the whole point of depression is that you can't "snap out of it"
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