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Old March 30 2012, 02:00 AM   #46
Darrell Pitt
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
Galekarens wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
The Internet would explode if they brought her back only to kill her again.
Yeah, well, from some TPTB's attitude re: KJ (that she was arrogant and "deserved" to die)
I'm not aware of a single author or editor at Pocket Books who thinks that Kathryn Janeway deserved to die for being arrogant. From where did you get this idea?

Darrell Pitt wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Oh they are actual novels, new stories, not novelizations of episodes.


Some are quite good. Some are quite bad. But at least we have them.
Yes, it's interesting to see what people do with the characters. There are so many untold stories in Trek (it is, after all, a big universe).

What would you say is the 'best of the best' to read?
For my money, the best Star Trek novels out there include:

  • Destiny by David Mack
  • Articles of the Federation by Keith R.A. DeCandido
  • Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind by David Mack
  • DS9: Hollow Men by Una McCormack
  • DS9: The Never-Ending Sacrifice by Una McCormack
  • Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers by James Swallow
  • Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game by David Mack
  • A Singular Destiny by Keith R.A. DeCandido
  • TNG: A Time for War, A Time for Peace by Keith R.A. DeCandido
  • The Lost Era: The Art of the Impossible by Keith R.A. DeCandido
  • The Lost Era: Serpents Among the Ruins by David R. George III
  • Crucible: Provenance of Shadows by David R. George III
  • Mirror Universe: The Sorrows of Empire by David Mack
  • Mirror Universe: Rise Like Lions by David Mack
  • DS9: A Stitch in Time by Andrew J. Robinson
  • S.C.E.: Wildfire by David Mack
  • VOY: Full Circle by Kirsten Beyer
  • Spock's World by Diane Duane
  • Strangers From the Sky by Margaret Wander Bonano
Thanks so much. What a great list.
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Old March 30 2012, 02:04 AM   #47
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
  • Terok Nor: Day of the Vipers by James Swallow
My favorite Trek book. I liked it so much that when my first copy got a bit wet I went and bought another one, LOL.
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Old March 30 2012, 03:05 AM   #48
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
Galekarens wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
The Internet would explode if they brought her back only to kill her again.
Yeah, well, from some TPTB's attitude re: KJ (that she was arrogant and "deserved" to die)
I'm not aware of a single author or editor at Pocket Books who thinks that Kathryn Janeway deserved to die for being arrogant. From where did you get this idea?
From witnesses that heard David Mack say this very thing at Fedcon in Germany last year.
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Old March 30 2012, 03:07 AM   #49
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Janeway didn't deserve to die because she was arrogant, psychotic, or inconstantly written (on the TV series). She deserved to die because of her actions in Endgame, when she willingly went along with her future self to change the timeline to suit her own selfish needs. And in the process wiped out countless lives, and caused the Borg invasion that got herself and Sixty Three Billion People killed and the Typhon pact to form.

Sure, the Borg were finally defeated during their invasion of the Federation, and in the long run that was probably a good thing. And the sixty three billion people who were killed were probably just a necessary sacrifice. Just like in our own history World War Two was necessary for our run of relative peace. We understandably still held the people responsible for WWII and the Holocaust responsible.
 
As should the Federation hold those responsible for the Borg invasion responsible. If Janeway does come back to life, she should have to spend the rest of her life in prison for violating the Temporal Prime Directive, which ended the existence of countless lives, and caused the deaths of sixty three billion people.
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Old March 30 2012, 03:23 AM   #50
Sci
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Brit wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Galekarens wrote: View Post

Yeah, well, from some TPTB's attitude re: KJ (that she was arrogant and "deserved" to die)
I'm not aware of a single author or editor at Pocket Books who thinks that Kathryn Janeway deserved to die for being arrogant. From where did you get this idea?
From witnesses that heard David Mack say this very thing at Fedcon in Germany last year.
So... hearsay? Hearsay about the word of a freelance novelist who did not actually write or edit the book in which Janeway was killed, and who is neither the editor nor the author of the Star Trek: Voyager novels?

ETA:

MrJ wrote: View Post
Janeway didn't deserve to die because she was arrogant, psychotic, or inconstantly written (on the TV series). She deserved to die because of her actions in Endgame, when she willingly went along with her future self to change the timeline to suit her own selfish needs.
Actually, there's no indication that the Temporal Prime Directive extends to protecting the future as claimed by persons who've traveled back from it. How could it? From the Federation's POV, the future hasn't happened yet, and it's encountered many potential futures that have never come to pass even if nothing has happened to prevent it from coming to pass. The Federation's job is to protect its own past, not the relative pasts of people from the Federation's relative future.

Future!Janeway committed a crime, not Actual!Janeway.

And in the process wiped out countless lives, and caused the Borg invasion that got herself and Sixty Three Billion People killed
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Janeway was completely justified in her attack on the Borg Collective in "Endgame."

1. The Borg Collective had already initiated hostilities against the Federation, and had made it clear that it had no intention of relenting in its hostilities. In essence, a de facto state of war had existed between the Federation and the Borg Collective since 2365. The only time the Borg did negotiate a cease-fire agreement (which Janeway negotiated)? The Borg had reneged on it and attempted to kill or assimilate the Voyager crew. As such, any and all acts of combat undertaken against the Borg Collective were inherently justified.

2. This is particularly true of Janeway's actions in "Endgame," because her actions crippled the Collective's transwarp network -- thereby hindering the Collective's efforts at conquering untold numbers of worlds and saving untold numbers of lives.

3. So far as Janeway knew, based up intelligence provided to her by Future!Janeway, the neurolytic pathogen would disrupt the entire Collective and thereby dissolve it. That this plan failed was unanticipated; given Future!Janeway's superior technology and superior understanding of the Borg, it was a reasonable thing to think that the pathogen would be effective in dissolving the Collective. That it failed to do so is unfortunate, but not it does not make the attack one whose failure should have been anticipated.

4. That the Collective would decide to target the Federation for extermination for the attack in "Endgame" is simply not a reasonably foreseeable consequence. This was, in fact, a function of the Collective's true nature being much more emotional and less rational than previously understood.

5. The Borg incursion that killed Janeway in Before Dishonor was actually unrelated to the Borg Invasion depicted in Star Trek: Destiny. The cube in Before Dishonor was cut off from the rest of the Collective, and had developed an innovative new assimilation technology not shared with the rest of the Collective. The invasion fleet that arrived the next year had already been on its way before the Federation even encountered the cube from Before Dishonor -- in fact, that cube had already been in the Alpha Quadrant before "Endgame."

6. Saying that Janeway was responsible for the Borg Invasion is like saying that the British were responsible for the Nazi invasion of Poland, or that U.S. foreign policy was responsible for 9/11: It's complete bullshit.

The British shouldn't have imposed such harsh terms upon Germany with the Treaty of Versailles; this does not mean they were responsible for Adolf Hitler's decision to launch a war of aggression against the whole of Europe. The United States should not be propping up its puppet dictatorships in the Middle East; this does not mean that it was responsible for Osama bin Ladin's decision to launch the 9/11 attacks. Future!Janeway should not have altered her past in violation of Future!Federation law; this does not make her, or Actual!Janeway, responsible for the Borg Queen's decision to attempt to exterminate the Federation.

and the Typhon pact to form.
No, the Breen, Tzenkethi, Tholian, Gorn, Romulan, and Kinshaya governments are responsible for the formation of the Typhon Pact. With inspiration provided by Federation President Bacco, whose demand for their alliance against the Borg inspired them to realize that they were all stronger together than by themselves.

Besides, the formation of the Typhon Pact may yet not turn out to be a bad thing, if its moderate factions gain power.
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Old March 30 2012, 05:34 AM   #51
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

You've got your facts a little bit wrong. While the Borg cube featured in "Before Dishonor" was in the AQ before "Endgame", the Borg fleet in "Destiny" attacks because of the events of "Endgame".

That being said, it's also said in "Racing the Clock" (may have the title wrong) that in pretty much every timeline where the events of "Endgame" didn't occur, meaning the Caeliar don't run into the Borg at the space and time when they do, the Borg essentially end up overrunning the Milky Way.

Hell, in RtC Temporal Investigations is ready to bring Janeway up on charges shortly after Voyager's return, but some reliable sources tell them, essentially, that there's no point.

In short, there's no easy answer.
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Old March 30 2012, 06:16 AM   #52
Sci
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

DonIago wrote: View Post
You've got your facts a little bit wrong. While the Borg cube featured in "Before Dishonor" was in the AQ before "Endgame", the Borg fleet in "Destiny" attacks because of the events of "Endgame".
... yes, that's what I said. The Borg cube in Before Dishonor -- called the "supercube" because of its advanced assimilation technology -- was in the Alpha Quadrant before "Endgame" and was cut off from the rest of the Collective. It attacked the Sol system and was defeated. Then, separately and coincidentally, the main Collective's fleet began attacking Federation and other nearby targets after discovering a subspace conduit capable of bringing them to the tri-border from the Delta Quadrant.

Either way, the supercube's actions in TNG: Resistance and TNG: Before Dishonor were not in retaliation for the "Endgame" attack.

That being said, it's also said in "Racing the Clock" (may have the title wrong) that in pretty much every timeline where the events of "Endgame" didn't occur, meaning the Caeliar don't run into the Borg at the space and time when they do, the Borg essentially end up overrunning the Milky Way.
Yep. Though the novel was Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock.
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Old March 30 2012, 07:59 AM   #53
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
Either way, the supercube's actions in TNG: Resistance and TNG: Before Dishonor were not in retaliation for the "Endgame" attack.
The fact that those events were completely unrelated to Destiny really weakens them, IMO. They don't serve as a build-up, they're just a separate crisis which happens to be with the same enemy.
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Old March 30 2012, 08:43 AM   #54
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

MrJ wrote: View Post
Janeway didn't deserve to die because she was arrogant, psychotic, or inconstantly written (on the TV series). She deserved to die because of her actions in Endgame, when she willingly went along with her future self to change the timeline to suit her own selfish needs. And in the process wiped out countless lives, and caused the Borg invasion that got herself and Sixty Three Billion People killed and the Typhon pact to form.

Sure, the Borg were finally defeated during their invasion of the Federation, and in the long run that was probably a good thing. And the sixty three billion people who were killed were probably just a necessary sacrifice. Just like in our own history World War Two was necessary for our run of relative peace. We understandably still held the people responsible for WWII and the Holocaust responsible.
 
As should the Federation hold those responsible for the Borg invasion responsible. If Janeway does come back to life, she should have to spend the rest of her life in prison for violating the Temporal Prime Directive, which ended the existence of countless lives, and caused the deaths of sixty three billion people.
Are you suggesting that, when given the chance, we shouldn't fight tyranny because the tyrant might respond with force?
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Old March 30 2012, 12:37 PM   #55
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I'm not aware of a single author or editor at Pocket Books who thinks that Kathryn Janeway deserved to die for being arrogant. From where did you get this idea?
From witnesses that heard David Mack say this very thing at Fedcon in Germany last year.
So... hearsay? Hearsay about the word of a freelance novelist who did not actually write or edit the book in which Janeway was killed, and who is neither the editor nor the author of the Star Trek: Voyager novels?
Not exactly hearsay when you are hearing the report from a reliable witness first hand, as in my case. I have personally spoken to one of the witnesses (actually I can contact at least two of them). This person is reliable and someone I trust.

It was also said in a public book signing at Fedcon so there was also no reasonable expectation of privacy either. I am also pretty sure it was said on Saturday night, but I could possibly be wrong about that. This witness has personally autographed books (with inscriptions that include the name of the recipient) by David Mack to prove she did actually speak to him. I have seen them.

Do you really believe that David Mack has no influence on Pocket Trek, or that the "Destiny" books haven't influenced every other single book written in the NG/DS9/Voyager time frame since?
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Old March 30 2012, 01:06 PM   #56
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

DonIago wrote: View Post
it's also said in "Racing the Clock" (may have the title wrong) that in pretty much every timeline where the events of "Endgame" didn't occur, meaning the Caeliar don't run into the Borg at the space and time when they do, the Borg essentially end up overrunning the Milky Way.
Which is something that should be explored (along with the Dominion) in the future Mirror Universe books...

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Old March 30 2012, 01:36 PM   #57
Sci
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

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Sci wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
From witnesses that heard David Mack say this very thing at Fedcon in Germany last year.
So... hearsay? Hearsay about the word of a freelance novelist who did not actually write or edit the book in which Janeway was killed, and who is neither the editor nor the author of the Star Trek: Voyager novels?
Not exactly hearsay when you are hearing the report from a reliable witness first hand, as in my case. I have personally spoken to one of the witnesses (actually I can contact at least two of them). This person is reliable and someone I trust.
No, that's still hearsay.

Do you really believe that David Mack has no influence on Pocket Trek,
Of course he has influence on the other authors at Pocket. And the other authors at Pocket have influence on him. But that doesn't mean they're all alike in their dramatic opinions or in their thinking. One need only look at how different in tone a typical David Mack book is from a typical Keith R.A. DeCandido book to see that.

(Seriously, compare how Mack depicts the character of Federation President Nanietta Bacco in his novel Typhon Pact: Zero Sum Game to how DeCandido depicts her in Articles of the Federation. The difference is striking--she's much more idealistic, much less belligerent, much less Machiavellian in DeCandido's hands than in Mack's. These people do not all think the same way.)

or that the "Destiny" books haven't influenced every other single book written in the NG/DS9/Voyager time frame since?
Irrelevant, because the decision to write the death of Janeway was made long before Destiny was ever conceived of, and happened in an entirely separate book. Articles of the Federation was incredibly influential, too--doesn't mean DeCandido dictated the opinions of every Star Trek author, or that his book dictated the contents of every novel published afterwards.
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Old March 30 2012, 02:26 PM   #58
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Sci wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

So... hearsay? Hearsay about the word of a freelance novelist who did not actually write or edit the book in which Janeway was killed, and who is neither the editor nor the author of the Star Trek: Voyager novels?
Not exactly hearsay when you are hearing the report from a reliable witness first hand, as in my case. I have personally spoken to one of the witnesses (actually I can contact at least two of them). This person is reliable and someone I trust.
No, that's still hearsay.
So to finally satisfy you and your doubts:
It was ME (the owner of the Bring Back Janeway Facebook group) who talked to David Mack at the book stand of German Trek lit at Fedcon XX in Dusseldorf 2011.
I'm grateful that Mr. Mack took the time to frankly answer my questions about Janeway's return. I have a different view on those things than David Mack has, of course, nevertheless we were able to manage a businesslike talk and listen to each other.
With me there was a friend of mine who took this photo of me with David Mack and another German Trek fan as well as the sales assistent of the book stand where I bought the Destiny trilogy which David Mack signed personally for me.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater
I published a short report about my talk to David Mack on different Voy boards in English and German after Fedcon. So there is no secret about it.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

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Old March 30 2012, 06:23 PM   #59
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Another author has stated here on BBS that KJ's actions in Endgame were (in his opinion, but is a major one, so would seem to have influence) just as bad as those of (old) Admiral Janeway (whose actions were selfish and criminal). If that segues to she "deserved" to die (rather shocking, I think), of course not saying are his thoughts. Also, at a 2011 convention at a panel re: KJ returning or not, one of the official moderators said as such, there's probably a transcript of the audio feed somewhere. So that attitude seems to be present in higher places (beside any fans saying that). But, tho I think such an idea at Pocket Books exists (after how KJ was treated in Before Dishonor for me it's not hard to), I might better have said the "purported" attitude, since is not an official admitted editorial fact. That saying, I also don't believe KJ was "responsible" for the Borg War, is too convenient an excuse to blame one person, but that's just MO. BTW, calling both KJ's actions in Endgame wrong seems to say one thinks the writers of Voyager TV were also wrong, sort of an interesting thought. PS Am kinda sorry I mentioned this, and then instigated any controversy, but too late now I guess! Meanwhile, am both exited and worried about this book, at least the cover is fab, lol.

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Old March 30 2012, 06:28 PM   #60
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Re: Janeway returning to Trek Lit?

Just because a writer has a character do something doesn't mean that they endorse that action. If so, you'd never have antagonists in fiction.

I don't agree with Janeway's decision, but I don't think the writers necessarily intended for me to do so, or that they themselves do.

I'd think episodes such as "Tuvix" are a clear indication that sometimes the point of an episode is to present a conundrum and encourage discussion, not necessarily advocate a particular viewpoint...though of course the characters themselves have to reach a decision.
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