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Old March 26 2012, 03:54 AM   #481
sonak
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

It's not sure that "Kes fans would have to deal with her dying anyway". There were hints of prologing her lifespan and even if not, she would probably have survived until they arrived to Earth. As for the sick, morbid episode made to insult the fans in which "she was going home to die anyway", we don't know if this really happened. In fact we don't know if that pathetic creature with very little resemblance to the real Kes really was the real Kes.

If we look at season 3, Kes was the main character in two episodes, "Warlord" and "Before And After". She was a most prominent character in "The Swarm and "Darkling" and had a lot of screen time in episodes like "Basics#2", "Sacred Ground", "Coda" and "Scorpion#1#.

Compare that to Harry Kim who had one episode where he was the main character, "Favorite Son" and two episodes where he was a prominent character, "The Chute" and "Alter Ego".

We can also compare with Neelix who had one episode where he was the main character, "Fair Trade" and one episode as a prominent character, "Rise".

If we compare the episodes where Kes played an important part, like "Warlord", "Before And After", "Darkling", "The Swarm" and "Scorpion#1" with those with Kim and Neelix as important characters, we can see that Kes is a head of both Neelix and Kim when it comes to importance for the episodes as such and when it comes to save the day for the crew.

solid analysis. I stand from the sidelines and applaud.
More like paper thin.
The fact that Harry Kim is is in nearly every single bridge scene and has dialog in all those scenes, still gives him 3x the amount his character is in the show over Kes. He still gets 3x as much exposure than Kes without even being featured prominately in an ep. There are eps in season 3 that Kes isn't even in or ones like "Displaced", where she doesn't even have dialog.


your argument is that because Harry Kim has a generic bridge role where he gets to say things like "tachyon emissions are reading at x percent" that he's MORE valuable as a character than Kes? That makes no sense to me. What that says is that they could easily have replaced Harry with a rotating role of "bridge ensign" who said three lines a week and got paid a lot less.
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Old March 26 2012, 05:01 AM   #482
exodus
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

sonak wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


solid analysis. I stand from the sidelines and applaud.
More like paper thin.
The fact that Harry Kim is is in nearly every single bridge scene and has dialog in all those scenes, still gives him 3x the amount his character is in the show over Kes. He still gets 3x as much exposure than Kes without even being featured prominately in an ep. There are eps in season 3 that Kes isn't even in or ones like "Displaced", where she doesn't even have dialog.


your argument is that because Harry Kim has a generic bridge role where he gets to say things like "tachyon emissions are reading at x percent" that he's MORE valuable as a character than Kes? That makes no sense to me. What that says is that they could easily have replaced Harry with a rotating role of "bridge ensign" who said three lines a week and got paid a lot less.
No.
I already stated my argument was to show that Kes role decreased during s3 and was not expanding as someone claimed. Kes was getting less screen time and dialog by s3, none of the other cast had their roles decreased by this piont but Kes. Harry was still on Tv more and saying more lines than Kes by s3, regardless of whether it was generic dialog or not. Development or character value has nothing to do with it. We the audience are still seeing and hearing Harry more than Kes by that point. If she has less dialog and screen time than all her peers, then how are they expanding her character?
That is the argument.
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Old March 26 2012, 05:43 AM   #483
Lynx
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Yes, by that logic, Lieutenant Ayala was a wonderfully developed secondary character that was indispensable to the show
Its amazing the things people will argue on this forum.
Yes, and in that case Morn was a more valuable character for DS9 than Jake Sisko.
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Old March 26 2012, 05:49 AM   #484
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Morn paid for his drinks.

He kept that bar in the black.

What did Jake's pinko philosophy ever accomplish?
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Old March 26 2012, 06:26 AM   #485
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
More like paper thin.
The fact that Harry Kim is is in nearly every single bridge scene and has dialog in all those scenes, still gives him 3x the amount his character is in the show over Kes...
your argument is that because Harry Kim has a generic bridge role where he gets to say things like "tachyon emissions are reading at x percent" that he's MORE valuable as a character than Kes? ...
No.
I already stated my argument was to show that Kes role decreased during s3 and was not expanding as someone claimed.
I don't get what you're arguing here. Sonak pretty much just paraphrased your post. And your post was about Kim's screen time, not Kes's supposedly diminishing role.

IMO, Kim and Kes can't really be compared. Kim didn't go anywhere, metaphorically speaking. He entered Voyager as an annoyingly wholesome ensign, and left a slightly more seasoned ensign. Kes, on the other hand, changed a great deal. She went from being a naive teenager to being an interesting adult. Her story was so much richer and more engaging. Kim was often used as window dressing, but if that was meant to do the character a favor, I don't think it worked.

Lynx wrote: View Post
Yes, and in that case Morn was a more valuable character for DS9 than Jake Sisko.
Morn was a more valuable character than Jake. He had an episode centered around him and never spoke a word. And he never made the audience watch him get it on with a creepy cougar.
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Old March 26 2012, 06:31 AM   #486
teacake
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Morn paid for his drinks.

He kept that bar in the black.

What did Jake's pinko philosophy ever accomplish?
Anselm.

Which I'm sure the viewers all care about a great deal.
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Old March 26 2012, 03:17 PM   #487
You_Will_Fail
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Personally, I don't think there was that much difference in the amount of screentime between Kes in season 2 and season 3 *especially* if we don't consider Elogium which was supposed to air in season 1.

Parturition (kind of)
Persistence of Vision
Cold Fire
Tuvix

vs

The Swarm
Warlord
Darkling
Before and After

Pretty even
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Old March 27 2012, 04:10 AM   #488
exodus
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post

your argument is that because Harry Kim has a generic bridge role where he gets to say things like "tachyon emissions are reading at x percent" that he's MORE valuable as a character than Kes? ...
No.
I already stated my argument was to show that Kes role decreased during s3 and was not expanding as someone claimed.
I don't get what you're arguing here. Sonak pretty much just paraphrased your post. And your post was about Kim's screen time, not Kes's supposedly diminishing role.
Screen time-the amount of time you physically see the character on the TV screen per episode per season
Not to be confused with character development or the amount of episodes a character is featured in each season. Screen time isn't limited to the amount of eps. that character is featured in but rather how many times does the audience physically see that character on their TV within in each episode.
For example: Harry is in the entire two parter of "Future's End", Kes has two small scenes. You see Harry in "Macrocosm" Kes isn't in it all. I don't think she's in "The Chute", "Remember" or "The Q and he Grey" either but all the rest of the cast is.
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Last edited by exodus; March 27 2012 at 04:27 AM.
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Old March 27 2012, 04:32 AM   #489
sonak
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
spot_loves_data wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
No.
I already stated my argument was to show that Kes role decreased during s3 and was not expanding as someone claimed.
I don't get what you're arguing here. Sonak pretty much just paraphrased your post. And your post was about Kim's screen time, not Kes's supposedly diminishing role.
Screen time-the amount of time you physically see the character on the TV screen per episode per season
Not to be confused with character development or the amount of episodes a character is featured in each season. Screen time isn't limited to the amount of eps. that character is featured in but rather how many times does the audience physically see that character on their TV within in each episode.

again, I'm confused. Help me out here:

are you admitting that Kes got more character development in less screen time than Harry? If so, it kind of dashes the "hard to write for" excuse, doesn't it? And simultaneously makes the character of Harry Kim pretty replaceable, right? I mean, you keep writing about all this bridge screen time he had.

Well ok, I accept that for the sake of argument. But if it's generic bridge dialogue, then you don't need a main character slot taken up by a guy who is just reading generic lines. That's why you have walk-on ensign roles.
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Old March 27 2012, 04:39 AM   #490
Guy Gardener
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You need to remember how cheap Voyager was.

They were really not interested in their exra's expressing dialogue if it trippled their pay rate.
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Old March 27 2012, 04:54 AM   #491
exodus
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

sonak wrote: View Post


are you admitting that Kes got more character development in less screen time than Harry? If so, it kind of dashes the "hard to write for" excuse, doesn't it?
Nope, you can still write for a character and hit brick walls in developing them.

Well ok, I accept that for the sake of argument. But if it's generic bridge dialogue, then you don't need a main character slot taken up by a guy who is just reading generic lines. That's why you have walk-on ensign roles.
Voyager couldn't afford to keep the guy playing LT. Carey as a regular re-arrcurring character. Why would they hire and pay out more for a nobody to read lines when they already had someone on the payroll to do it. It's a budget, EVERYBODY and BUSINESS lives on one.
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Old March 27 2012, 04:59 AM   #492
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Kes is in Macrocosm.
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Old March 27 2012, 06:42 AM   #493
Lynx
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

exodus wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


are you admitting that Kes got more character development in less screen time than Harry? If so, it kind of dashes the "hard to write for" excuse, doesn't it?
Nope, you can still write for a character and hit brick walls in developing them.

Well ok, I accept that for the sake of argument. But if it's generic bridge dialogue, then you don't need a main character slot taken up by a guy who is just reading generic lines. That's why you have walk-on ensign roles.
Voyager couldn't afford to keep the guy playing LT. Carey as a regular re-arrcurring character. Why would they hire and pay out more for a nobody to read lines when they already had someone on the payroll to do it. It's a budget, EVERYBODY and BUSINESS lives on one.
So they couldn't keep Carey for economical reasons. Still, it was rude to kill him off.

But they could add characters like Vorik, Naomi Wildman and Icheb to the cast despite the fact that those characters added less than Carey to the ongoing story and the cost for those probably was higher than the cost for keeping Kes on the show. Not to mention that Kim contributed only little more than Carey.

If they were so tight on money, why didn't they kill off all the main characters, only keeping Seven. That would have been something for those in charge, wouldn't it?
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Old March 27 2012, 06:46 AM   #494
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
Kes is in Macrocosm.
Yes, and she's in "Remember", "The Chute" and "The Q And The Grey" too.
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Old March 27 2012, 07:15 AM   #495
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Re: Why was Kes written off the show?

Lynx wrote: View Post
So they couldn't keep Carey for economical reasons. Still, it was rude to kill him off.

But they could add characters like Vorik, Naomi Wildman and Icheb to the cast despite the fact that those characters added less than Carey to the ongoing story
<snippage>

Vorik, Naomi and Icheb were FAR more interesting than Carey who really was not interesting at all. For one thing they were all aliens, though Naomi's alien half was never a story issue. Her story issue was that she was alien in being the only child on the ship. Carey is is just Joe Goldshirt.
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