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Old March 24 2012, 09:15 PM   #1156
MNM
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Re: Mass Effect 3

-Brett- wrote: View Post
backstept wrote: View Post
They don't owe us anything.
Far as I've seen, no one here has suggested that they owe us.
Well, if that was really the case though, and no one thought they were owed anything, threads all over the internet wouldnt be full of people demanding DLC to "improve" or "fix" etc.. the endings. but they are, and they are because people think Bioware "owe" them a particular kind of ending.

I can understand not liking what we got as endings, but just because people arent out right going "I am owed a better ending because of ..." doesnt mean they dont think they are owed anything full stop.
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Old March 25 2012, 01:27 AM   #1157
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Re: Mass Effect 3

MNM wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
backstept wrote: View Post
They don't owe us anything.
Far as I've seen, no one here has suggested that they owe us.
Well, if that was really the case though, and no one thought they were owed anything, threads all over the internet wouldnt be full of people demanding DLC to "improve" or "fix" etc.. the endings. but they are, and they are because people think Bioware "owe" them a particular kind of ending.

I can understand not liking what we got as endings, but just because people arent out right going "I am owed a better ending because of ..." doesnt mean they dont think they are owed anything full stop.
Personally, I think something greater beyond the 3 variations on a theme endings is required. And BioWare has encouraged players of the Series all the way back to ME1 to give them feedback, comments and I'm sure that has radically improved the experience from many different angles.

The endings are just bad. It's been awhile, but I'm sure many Trek fans wanted something to cancel out These Are The Voyages. But Enterprise was off the air, impossible under the circumstances at the time. For ME3, not impossible, they're planning on doing updates and DLC. The problems can be fixed or mitigated. So they owe it to their fans to do something to fix this mess, because they can.
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Old March 25 2012, 06:36 AM   #1158
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Re: Mass Effect 3

MNM wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote: View Post
backstept wrote: View Post
They don't owe us anything.
Far as I've seen, no one here has suggested that they owe us.
Well, if that was really the case though, and no one thought they were owed anything, threads all over the internet wouldnt be full of people demanding DLC to "improve" or "fix" etc.. the endings. but they are, and they are because people think Bioware "owe" them a particular kind of ending.
Wanting something isn't the same thing as thinking that it's owed to you. I'm not really sure where that idea came from.
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Old March 25 2012, 07:01 AM   #1159
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Re: Mass Effect 3

The Belief in Owing
Essentially, what I am getting from those who believe this in the gaming industry, is that we should be grateful for what we are given, and that by asking for more, that we are violating some principle and that we are threatening to upset the order of things. The principle in this case being artistic integrity. The people who make the games are the ones who contribute to the industry, and the consumers are the ones who benefit from their contributions through the pleasure derived from playing the games. To demand more is to be impertinent.
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Old March 25 2012, 10:41 AM   #1160
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Re: Mass Effect 3

What's wrong with a little impertinence? Seriously though, most of what you've been arguing about are just straw man arguments.

The ending(s) of ME3 are demonstrably *bad* (and by bad i mean poorly executed and unsatisfying, not that it wasn't the mega-fun happy ending or the Scooby Doo ending.) As paying customers who were promised something *good* in this regard we are within our rights to make our dissatisfaction known and it's within the interests of the game developers to pay heed. Do some fans take it too far? Sure. Welcome to the internet. But does that negate the validity of the reasonable complaints and constructive criticisms levelled at the game?

Speaking as an artist myself, I think I can safely say that artistic integrity doesn't enter into it. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum and has *always* been subject to critical and peer review, doesn't matter if it's a painting, sculpture, musical composition, feature film or video game. People have an odd idea that the artist's vision is always sacrosanct but the reality is that this is simply not the case. Never was. Art is largely done on commission, which means you're doing it because someone wants something specific and is paying you, the artist, to make it a reality. If you fail to do so, or what you produce doesn't meet the agreed upon specifications then you either don't get paid in full or you have to go away and try again. It's the same principle here. Art was commissioned. It came back as a masterpiece with a glaring flaw, akin to a red clown's nose on the Mona Lisa. Kindly go back and fix it.
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Old March 25 2012, 01:13 PM   #1161
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Re: Mass Effect 3

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Wanting something isn't the same thing as thinking that it's owed to you.
Of course it's not.

But there are many, many people who's reaction is not just "aww, I wanted this, but got that...". That would be the reaction of people who are disappointed.

There are people who felt they were owed a certain type of ending, and now that hasnt come, they are demanding DLC to "fix" the ending, they are saying how they will not buy Bioware again etc... That is a reaction of people who feel they are owed something.

There's nothing wrong with being disappointed in what we got, there is nothing wrong with wishing they would change it. But at the same time lets not pretend that no one, at all, is of the opinion that Bioware "owe" them.
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Old March 25 2012, 04:46 PM   #1162
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Re: Mass Effect 3

^One might argue that Bioware owe it to themselves not to let what is otherwise one of their best games end like this. It's all subjective of course and to be honest whether certain parties are correct in their assertions that they are owed anything irrelevant, one way or the other. The fact is Bioware have already taken notice and have apparantly decided to do *something* to address it. What that something is, only time will tell.
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Old March 25 2012, 06:33 PM   #1163
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Reverend,

I wasn't stating my position. I am stating the position that some in the gaming industry feel about this matter.

I agree with you 100%.
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Old March 26 2012, 01:53 AM   #1164
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Well I gave the PC version of Galaxy at War at test run mostly just to make sure there weren't any issues with the PC version of the game.

I did better than I expected.
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Old March 27 2012, 08:34 PM   #1165
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I'm beginning to think Bob Chipman was replaced with a Skrull, or is so eager to pounce on self-entitlement that he actually forgets the medium in question.

I'm not actually surprised at his reaction, I'm more surprised at how inept his grasp of the facts are. There's being a cynic, and there's being a troll.
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Old March 27 2012, 09:17 PM   #1166
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Re: Mass Effect 3

I don't know, I think he has a fair point. He's basically criticising the extreme lengths some fans have gone to. No argument here...and I'm firmly in the "did not like the ME3 endings" camp. A lot of people out there seriously lack perspective. That or the internet has a way of magnifying personalities and exaggerating opinions *way* out of proportion. Perhaps a little of both.
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Old March 27 2012, 10:05 PM   #1167
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Well, this is also a man who claimed that Bioware's "caving in" and announcement of Ending DLC sets back gaming as an art form by "a decade."

If one decides to complain about over-reaction and starts said complaints with that, one's actions are the living embodiment of "made of stupid."

If someone has the moral and rational high ground, and decided to torpedo their argument with blatant trolling, that person earned the privilege to lose. This is what really pisses me off about Bob's attitude. He deliberately trolled gaming culture with the full understanding that he's doing so.

Not to win brownie points. Not to win popularity. Just because he can.

That is the reason he's earned the vitrol slung his way recently. Not because of his position, but because he's actually worked hard to frame his opinion to nullify every point he's ever made about gaming culture needing to "grow up".
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Old March 27 2012, 10:42 PM   #1168
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Re: Mass Effect 3

You might want to watch this. He expresses his POV a little more explicitly and indepth than what you can gather from a random tweet.

I'm not saying I agree with everything the guy says, but I think his basic argument that the extreme backlash and sense of entitlement can only hurt the medium in the long run is a fair one. The real reason he's getting blasted is because a lot of people on the internet are kneejerk reactionaries who think he's saying "everyone who didn't like the ending are crybabies." He's not. He's saying the crybabies are being crybabies and that it not helpful to a medium currently struggling to be taken seriously.

Last edited by Reverend; March 27 2012 at 10:53 PM.
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Old March 27 2012, 11:07 PM   #1169
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Re: Mass Effect 3

Wow, for someone who complained in the episode that he's soooooo busy with 4 web shows (actually 3, American Bob is more of a personal show that he's not actually PAID to make, and does not have a regular web schedule) that he can't bother to play any ME game, he did a damn good job filling an entire episode with potshots at low hanging fruit. I'll bet you 5 dollars it took him more time to throw his "story" scenes together than all the time he did "research" or writing.

Did he bother to mention that the very company that publishes and funds said games has a documented history of actively interfering and rushing projects before they can even pass alpha stage, which alone casts the defense of "storyteller's rights" into doubt when it's now more clear that Bioware's team was pushed aside by EA to rush the game into production before they could finish? Or how about the fact that key lore elements, and indeed the full content of the Collector's Edition are only available behind an additional pay-wall? Does be address ANYTHING beyond the topics that a 5 minute Google search would have brought up?

No. He's blatantly jumping on the "anti" bandwagon to make himself feel better about being only half-invested in modern gaming other than throwbacks to retro IPs. The reason people think they deserve something more is because they paid for content that EA only later decided to re-charge consumers for. The "ending" is actually the climax of stupid shit ME fans have put up with over three games, but for him to have learned that would take time away from Bob's weekends of bitching at Twitter trolls.

But that would be, oh how do I put this, adult of him?

God dammit Bob, you are capable of much better. It's really sad to watch someone who's earned your respect just out and admit he's bullshitting you.

Kind of like EA. Funny.
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Last edited by USS Mariner; March 27 2012 at 11:20 PM.
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Old March 27 2012, 11:27 PM   #1170
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Re: Mass Effect 3

^Again, you totally missed the point. What you just made is known as a straw man argument. He's not talking about the circumstances surrounding the controversy, or what did or did not influence the final product, he's *only* bemoaning the extreme and unwarranted actions of an intensely vocal minority and it's potential effects on the medium as a whole.
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